Our Fractured Crown: An Eastern Roman Timeline

[Averious]

OHHHH MY GOD!?!?!

WE ARE BACK BABY!!!!

With that said I have to express how glad this TL is back. It was one of the first I ever read on the Forum and got me into late Byzantine history, which I have had the pleasure of playing in during a Nation game set in the 1350s as Nikephoros II Orsini. (The empire as fallen to the Serbs and some Turks occupy Constantinople but I’ve gotten Dusan to have his son adopt Andronikos IV as his heir by joining him. Things be wack)

With that game I’ve gotten a lot of knowledge about the period and i honestly think that John’s more Latin view of things could be quite helpful for the empire, as when compared to the Knights and men at arms of Europe the Byzantine thematic soldiers. And that’s mostly because of a few different factors, as they are full time soldiers who have much more time to train and their equipment is generally better. If I’m not mistaken then this is a major reason for why the empire came to rely on foreign mercenaries, as their own homegrown armies just weren’t up to task.

Dusan’s and Serbia’s transformation into a more western based army and forces is one of the biggest factors for why it was so successful, especially their cavalry, which they did by adopting it from Italian and German mercenaries (the latter of which were made into a special unit of about 300 German knights named the Alemannic Guard) . So while the empire is certainly in a better position I do think it will have to rethink its military structure in the near future.

That does lead into my last point though, which is essentially this; allow the Byzantines to lose. And by that I mean don’t force the empire to always win or for its enemies to be incompetent. Because as the saying goes “a hero is only as good as his villains” and it would be a disservice towards Andronikos for him to face some real good opponents because it makes the victories so much sweeter. That’s a major reason for why o don’t like wanks, as I just don’t feel that they give stories the same quality that hard fought battles have.

…with that rant done I do want to state this. I’m so glad that this is back, and I really hope you are doing good. And if you ever want some simple battle maps then I’m currently working on improving my skills on editing stuff, so I’d be willing to make some stuff for the future if you are interested. Either way, good luck with the TL. It’s great to have you back.

Especially as the Timurids, assuming Tamerlane and his rise wasn’t butterflied away, moving West and handing the Empire serious defeats would be a good way to shake up Rhomania and trigger potential changes that would otherwise not be possible. This would especially IMO be the case with how Timur, in addition to claiming legitimacy from Genghis, saw himself as the Sword of Islam and having him march to “protect” the Turkish beyliks (while vassalizing them) from Romanian aggression would very much be in-character for him.

Glad to be back!
On the topic of 'Latinising' the Empire, and the notion that the Empire relied on mercenaries because it's own army wasn't up to the task, I feel the need to correct that perception.
Primarily the reason for the Empire's reliance on mercenaries stems from three key factors; loyalty, cost, and manpower. In short hiring someone else who had no reason to betray you besides money, ala no political aspirations, was preferable to (and cheaper than) having your own men die or potentially have enough power to rebel. Roman soldiers, at least in the Thematic System, trained for periods of time to maintain professionalism, although yes they weren't life-long warriors as Europe's Knightly Class was.

Of course though, the Empire needs enemies who're viable threats, and a wank invalidates that as said--the story is boring otherwise. A balance, in the end, needs to be struck between having realism and good narrative; sometimes enemies are just weak.

It would be interesting if Timur was defeated due to a desperate alliance between the Rhomans and Ottomans (IIRC @Averious said the Ottoman Empire will be around as a perpetual rival of sorts), the Rhomans don't like allying with their Turkish enemy to defeat an even greater foe. Modern day Rhomans and Turks ITTL (an especially proud group of people) do not like when people bring it up, only the Brits are allowed to rib them about it 🤣🤣🤣.

You gotta stop reading my notes--did I drop them somewhere? 🤣

Tying this up in a sort of bow--Latinisation; the Empire has the mind of an early-modern power, but the heart of an antiquity one--I will be openly honest and say that rather than further feudalise there will instead be a sort of weird synergy where things akin to soldier cantons co-exist with French-style noble estates and so forth; although this evolution will take place over centuries.

My opinion on Rome being locked into 'being stuck as far as Antioch' has also changed over the years as well, and if I'm honest I was likely influenced in this by a combination of being worried at turning this into a 'wank'--and by 'meta correctness'. My current mindset is trying to more deeply imbed myself into the minds of the characters, and the time; for example, if the chance is seeming there to reclaim Jerusalem? Why not? The character shouldn't possess the future bais I do.

Anyway, ramble ramble ramble, lol.

@Vikingen I would be more than happy to work with you on map things.

 

[A Random Man]

You gotta stop reading my notes--did I drop them somewhere? 🤣

You'll create an Unholy Alliance (or Deadly Alliance for my love of Mortal Kombat) between Christians and Muslims to defeat Timur. Due to Rhomania having an English Empress, and constantly badgering her older brother to the point of annoyance, the King of England sends forces to help his brother-in-law. After beating Timur and destroying his empire, the British forever talk about how they solely saved Europe from Turco-Mongol domination. British arrogance is even greater TTL 🤣🤣🤣.

 

[Vikingen]

To make my point clear, the thematic system will generally lead to cheaper but lower quality troops. After the Black Death the majority of armies were made up of hired men at arms whom simply had more time to dedicate to training. Which is why I would honestly recommend a more of a French gendarme kind of system. As I feel they are more indicative of how the empire might actually create an effective western style of cavalry. Which of course would be supplemented by the light cavalry of the empire.

Along with that, I’ve got a few ideas for whom could serve as John V’s commanders/characters whom may be interesting to have be active under his reign. First of all, I think Nikephoros II Orsini could serve as the new western commander, as while he rebelled OTL I think with how everything is turning out that (since the civil war won’t occur) that he could probably be raised into a loyal servant of the empire. And he was pretty effective OTL, despite being killed by the Albanians. And him marrying John Kantakouzenos daughter Maria would make him John V’s brother in law.

Furthermore, there are Manuel and Mathew Kantakouzenos who both would be some great candidates for important government officials. Mathew could be a great candidate for the next Dux of Nicaea because of his pretty well handled style when utilising Turkish mercenaries, and Turcopoles and other Turkish mercenaries would probably be a large part of the army that the Duchy will be able to raise.

Manuel on the other hand seems to me to be more of a force of administrative authority and therefore could maybe take up his father’s position as John V’s right hand civilian governor and adviser.

Also, about that Prince of Morea position. I’d suggest that the official name being princeps, as that would be closer to the original title that the Prince of Wales was, that being princeps Walliarum. That title would have a lot of historical significance and would also make his heir have a title that many would consider being equivalent of that of king (look at Henry III’s reaction to it from OTL). Which would both be a statement from John abd would increase the notoriety of his heirs.

Also, on the map thing, I’d like to have the battle turned into shall sections when you request maps, as that would make it a simpler process on both our parts.

And with that I shall stop my ramblings.

 

[Averious]

You'll create an Unholy Alliance (or Deadly Alliance for my love of Mortal Kombat) between Christians and Muslims to defeat Timur. Due to Rhomania having an English Empress, and constantly badgering her older brother to the point of annoyance, the King of England sends forces to help his brother-in-law. After beating Timur and destroying his empire, the British forever talk about how they solely saved Europe from Turco-Mongol domination. British arrogance is even greater TTL 🤣🤣🤣.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that Timur's Empire would be destroyed by this so-called Deadly Alliance, more that he's sent packing from Anatolia and the Levant which

Spoiler

would leave much of it open for exploitation by the Romans and Ottomans--depending on how that goes.

To make my point clear, the thematic system will generally lead to cheaper but lower quality troops. After the Black Death the majority of armies were made up of hired men at arms whom simply had more time to dedicate to training. Which is why I would honestly recommend a more of a French gendarme kind of system. As I feel they are more indicative of how the empire might actually create an effective western style of cavalry. Which of course would be supplemented by the light cavalry of the empire.

Along with that, I’ve got a few ideas for whom could serve as John V’s commanders/characters whom may be interesting to have be active under his reign. First of all, I think Nikephoros II Orsini could serve as the new western commander, as while he rebelled OTL I think with how everything is turning out that (since the civil war won’t occur) that he could probably be raised into a loyal servant of the empire. And he was pretty effective OTL, despite being killed by the Albanians. And him marrying John Kantakouzenos daughter Maria would make him John V’s brother in law.

Furthermore, there are Manuel and Mathew Kantakouzenos who both would be some great candidates for important government officials. Mathew could be a great candidate for the next Dux of Nicaea because of his pretty well handled style when utilising Turkish mercenaries, and Turcopoles and other Turkish mercenaries would probably be a large part of the army that the Duchy will be able to raise.

Manuel on the other hand seems to me to be more of a force of administrative authority and therefore could maybe take up his father’s position as John V’s right hand civilian governor and adviser.

Also, about that Prince of Morea position. I’d suggest that the official name being princeps, as that would be closer to the original title that the Prince of Wales was, that being princeps Walliarum. That title would have a lot of historical significance and would also make his heir have a title that many would consider being equivalent of that of king (look at Henry III’s reaction to it from OTL). Which would both be a statement from John abd would increase the notoriety of his heirs.

Also, on the map thing, I’d like to have the battle turned into shall sections when you request maps, as that would make it a simpler process on both our parts.

And with that I shall stop my ramblings.

Fair points all around, although I do have to point out that sadly Nikephoros II Orsini was butterflied away with all the conflicting sources I had--on top of Epirus no longer existing due to Roman conquest 🤣. Manuel and Matthew both have plotlines ahead of them--particularly Matthew (yes, ominious), who has to be compensated OOC for his TTL loss of Morea to the Crown-Prince's of the Empire.
As for why Princeps isn't being used? The context you're offering wouldn't really work, sadly, because the notion of it for the Romans--particularly John V, is that he's mimicking Edward of Angoulême in his (at the time) capacity as Prince of Wales, not the original usage of it by Owain Gwynedd (British history, including that of Wales, is another of my favourites, lol).
As for the maps? Sounds good! Thanks for offering, and thanks for being such an active member of the TL.

 

[A Random Man]

If the Turks controlled something like this it would be interesting:

Or even something like the Assyrians:

 

[Vikingen]

I wouldn't go as far as to say that Timur's Empire would be destroyed by this so-called Deadly Alliance, more that he's sent packing from Anatolia and the Levant which

Spoiler

would leave much of it open for exploitation by the Romans and Ottomans--depending on how that goes.

Fair points all around, although I do have to point out that sadly Nikephoros II Orsini was butterflied away with all the conflicting sources I had--on top of Epirus no longer existing due to Roman conquest 🤣. Manuel and Matthew both have plotlines ahead of them--particularly Matthew (yes, ominious), who has to be compensated OOC for his TTL loss of Morea to the Crown-Prince's of the Empire.
As for why Princeps isn't being used? The context you're offering wouldn't really work, sadly, because the notion of it for the Romans--particularly John V, is that he's mimicking Edward of Angoulême in his (at the time) capacity as Prince of Wales, not the original usage of it by Owain Gwynedd (British history, including that of Wales, is another of my favourites, lol).
As for the maps? Sounds good! Thanks for offering, and thanks for being such an active member of the TL.

Well Nikephoros was 7 in 1335 so he should’t have died because of any POD. And either way it’s not a big change to say he was just taken to court afterwards. OTL he was raised by John Kantakouzenos after the conquest of Epirus , so I don’t see any reason for him not to be there. He was born around when John was in this TL if I remember correctly. And he was named despot of Ainos by John Kantakouzenos to secure his position as he has married him to his daughter Maris at Andronikos request. But either way it was Manuel who was the despot of Morea. Mathew was only the despot for about 3 years or so.

 

[Wydo]

If the Turks controlled something like this it would be interesting:

I believe it was mentioned earlier in the story that the Turks, or at least the Ottomans, would eventually settle in, and take control of, Mesopotamia.

 

[Averious]

If the Turks controlled something like this it would be interesting:

Or even something like the Assyrians:

I believe it was mentioned earlier in the story that the Turks, or at least the Ottomans, would eventually settle in, and take control of, Mesopotamia.

My original intention was for them to control Mesopotamia, yes.

Well Nikephoros was 7 in 1335 so he should’t have died because of any POD. And either way it’s not a big change to say he was just taken to court afterwards. OTL he was raised by John Kantakouzenos after the conquest of Epirus , so I don’t see any reason for him not to be there. He was born around when John was in this TL if I remember correctly. And he was named despot of Ainos by John Kantakouzenos to secure his position as he has married him to his daughter Maris at Andronikos request. But either way it was Manuel who was the despot of Morea. Mathew was only the despot for about 3 years or so.

POD in concept is 1328, which is also the year OTL Nikephoros would have been born, although we don't know when (John was born TTL in 1330). Epirus itself is rather confusing in the sources, and what I ended up doing was fusing together several 'Anna's to create a singular Anna who was one of Andronikos' sisters; with Anna dying due to disease after the Orsini came to rule Epirus.
In the end the way the TL ended up panning out for Epirus was that the Orsini were wiped out alongside Epirus as an independent state; an early effort to make things a bit more managable on myself in terms of the overall TL.
You are correct about it being Manuel instead of Matthew--either way, the Kantakouzenoi will have other lands to rule (and if you've seen my original, inferior, TL you'd be able to guess which).

 

[Whiteshore]

Speaking of which, what are your plans for Egypt or Iran long-term ITTL, especially with the question of the fate of the Mamluks sans the Ottomans and whether Iran still goes Shi’a or stays Sunni in mind?

 

[Averious]

Speaking of which, what are your plans for Egypt or Iran long-term ITTL, especially with the question of the fate of the Mamluks sans the Ottomans and whether Iran still goes Shi’a or stays Sunni in mind?

In terms of Iran I honestly haven't thought about it, but I'm open to considerations. When it comes to them I often have flights of fancy that realistically wouldn't go anywhere, namely with Zoroastrianism.
As for Egypt?

Spoiler

The intention right now is to have it, and the Mamluks, fall in a similar fashion as they did OTL, with the Romans gradually taking on a more Ottoman-like trajectory as they start to fill the 'niche' left behind by them in the aftermath of Timur. Egypt will be reconquered, as will the Levant, and aside from a few minor possessions elsewhere, that will largely be the extend of their European/Mediterranean territories. The Copts, numbering anything from 20-30% of the population, depending on the sources, would be a viable backbone for rule once they're reunified with the Mother Church in what becomes rather standard during the Reunion Movement.

 

[Whiteshore]

In terms of Iran I honestly haven't thought about it, but I'm open to considerations. When it comes to them I often have flights of fancy that realistically wouldn't go anywhere, namely with Zoroastrianism.

I'd say Sunni Iran would probably be the best possible option on that end, especially wtih how Iran becoming Shi'a was contingent on the rise of the Safavids and barring the rise of the Safavids, it would most likely have remained Sunni.

 

[Averious]

I'd say Sunni Iran would probably be the best possible option on that end, especially wtih how Iran becoming Shi'a was contingent on the rise of the Safavids and barring the rise of the Safavids, it would most likely have remained Sunni.

Oh? How would you have that go about?

 

[Vikingen]

My original intention was for them to control Mesopotamia, yes.

POD in concept is 1328, which is also the year OTL Nikephoros would have been born, although we don't know when (John was born TTL in 1330). Epirus itself is rather confusing in the sources, and what I ended up doing was fusing together several 'Anna's to create a singular Anna who was one of Andronikos' sisters; with Anna dying due to disease after the Orsini came to rule Epirus.
In the end the way the TL ended up panning out for Epirus was that the Orsini were wiped out alongside Epirus as an independent state; an early effort to make things a bit more managable on myself in terms of the overall TL.
You are correct about it being Manuel instead of Matthew--either way, the Kantakouzenoi will have other lands to rule (and if you've seen my original, inferior, TL you'd be able to guess which).

I won’t argue the point to death, but I still believe that keeping Nikephoros alive will be more beneficial because of the simple fact that it gives you a historical character that you can use. Alongside that, it just gives options as having him be at court is an interesting idea, and his claim to the desperate of Epirus could perhaps coincide John’s more Latin influence. ( On a whole I think it’s easier to adopt OTL figures, and having him the back pocket isn’t something that’s going to be hard, at least in my opinion.)

But besides that I do have some ideas. With the Black Death the empire will undoubtedly be in a weakened position which could cause the Serbs to be a real threat. Which OTL they definitely were. Dusan isn’t someone to be trifled with.

And I’d be very interested in hearing about how Robert and Philip of Taranto are doing, since the former is the Latin emperor and Philip has a claim to the kingdom of Albania. Also, if I’m not mistaken, around this time the Latin lords of Achaea around this time sent an offer to swear allegiance to Andronikos. Which would be quite interesting as you’d then gain a small amount of knights.

 

[Averious]

I won’t argue the point to death, but I still believe that keeping Nikephoros alive will be more beneficial because of the simple fact that it gives you a historical character that you can use. Alongside that, it just gives options as having him be at court is an interesting idea, and his claim to the desperate of Epirus could perhaps coincide John’s more Latin influence. ( On a whole I think it’s easier to adopt OTL figures, and having him the back pocket isn’t something that’s going to be hard, at least in my opinion.)

But besides that I do have some ideas. With the Black Death the empire will undoubtedly be in a weakened position which could cause the Serbs to be a real threat. Which OTL they definitely were. Dusan isn’t someone to be trifled with.

And I’d be very interested in hearing about how Robert and Philip of Taranto are doing, since the former is the Latin emperor and Philip has a claim to the kingdom of Albania. Also, if I’m not mistaken, around this time the Latin lords of Achaea around this time sent an offer to swear allegiance to Andronikos. Which would be quite interesting as you’d then gain a small amount of knights.

The Black Death itself is going to be interesting, because due to the various butterflies that're already in play as a consequence of the roughly 17 years of TL 'drift' post-POD, some states which were hit hard will be hit harder, others hit more softly. As for Dusan he's currently busy trading blows with Louis I of Hungary-Croatia (Charles I having died in 1342 and Louis I inheriting his fight with the Serbian King over Bosnia)--for how long that lasts? Something to think on.

With Philip I of Taranto he died in 1332, and was succeeded by Robert as titular Latin Emperor, and as ruling Prince of Taranto, Achaea and King of Albania. Although with the latter, the Angevin (House of Anjou-Sicily) holdings in Albania add up to little more than just the city of Durres/Dyrrhachium; Dusan has taken the rest. Philip II, who you may be referring to, is currently unimportant; only gaining the Duchy of Durres from the death of his cousin Charles in 1348.

As for Achaea offering to swear allegiance to Andronikos around this time? Andronikos OTL has been dead and buried for 4 years (by 1345), and the Empire would be in the end-stages of the 1341-1347 Regency War/Civil War. Not sure if you're perhaps thinking about Kantakouzenos OTL, but I'm not sure as I haven't read about this offer of loyalty.

 

[Vikingen]

“In 1341, the Latin lords of the Peloponnese sent a delegation to Constantinople, seeking to swear allegiance to the Byzantine crown. An ailing Andronikos III then received the Latin delegation on one occasion, shortly before succumbing to an illness on 15 June 1341.”

This was OTL, apparently.

 

[Whiteshore]

Oh? How would you have that go about?

I was thinking a bunch of Sunni Turkmen or a similarly Sunni Timurid princeling ends up being the one to reunify Tamerlane's Empire after it all ends up falling apart, especially as the Safavids at this point are just another Sufi order.

 

[Averious]

“In 1341, the Latin lords of the Peloponnese sent a delegation to Constantinople, seeking to swear allegiance to the Byzantine crown. An ailing Andronikos III then received the Latin delegation on one occasion, shortly before succumbing to an illness on 15 June 1341.”

This was OTL, apparently.

I can see that on Wikipedia now; although it isn’t sourced. I’m willing to take it with a grain of salt—I’ll likely use it as a basis for some up-and-coming narrative. Thanks for pointing this out!

I was thinking a bunch of Sunni Turkmen or a similarly Sunni Timurid princeling ends up being the one to reunify Tamerlane's Empire after it all ends up falling apart, especially as the Safavids at this point are just another Sufi order.

Not sure if a Timurid Princeling or a bunch of Turkmen could specifically reunify Timur’s Empire, but I could see it turn into a sort of Diadochi situation where more potent ‘blocs’ of former territory form, including Persia.

 

[Vikingen]

This book may contain the source but I don’t have access to the whole book. https://books.google.no/books?id=y2...=gbs_selected_pages&cad=1#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[Whiteshore]

Not sure if a Timurid Princeling or a bunch of Turkmen could specifically reunify Timur’s Empire, but I could see it turn into a sort of Diadochi situation where more potent ‘blocs’ of former territory form, including Persia.

Yeah, I was thinking more that whoever takes over OTL Iran is Sunni and not Shi'a like OTL's Safavids with my comment anyways.

 

[Averious]

This book may contain the source but I don’t have access to the whole book. https://books.google.no/books?id=y2...=gbs_selected_pages&cad=1#v=onepage&q&f=false

Thanks, I’ll see if I can somehow get my hands on this.

Yeah, I was thinking more that whoever takes over OTL Iran is Sunni and not Shi'a like OTL's Safavids with my comment anyways.

Fair enough, lol. It’ll be interesting to see where it goes. It’d be a good thing to have a sort of major counterbalance to Orthodoxy considering what’ll happen later in the TL.