The Prince of the Roses - A Tudor TL

[BlueFlowwer]

I mean, it’s probably not likely at all, but both Kate Parr and Anna of Cleves are within that age range

Ned marrying one of his father's otl wives would be hysterical.

That movement was mostly inside the Catholic church before Luther, and without his case degenerating is likely to remain as such.

Butterflies are one things, direct consequences of some scenarios are a fully different one. And do not worry, mine was not an advice for you, but a general consideration.
If Frederick is Emperor there is no way who the German Reformation will happen with Luther

With all due respect, this subject is closed now and I don't want to hear further discussions on the reformation right now. If I want more advice I will ask for it. Please all respect that @isabella, @Nuraghe @DrakeRlugia.

 

[FalconHonour]

Kate Parr is a good shout. Meg Douglas could work too, or Catherine Willoughby.

What about one of James IV's illegitimate daughters?

Mary Howard?

 

[BlueFlowwer]

Kate Parr is a good shout. Meg Douglas could work too, or Catherine Willoughby.

Meg could work as a scottish proxy. Catherine Willoughby will be engaged to one of Henry's sons, but I'm not telling if it will be Ned or Hal yet!

What about one of James IV's illegitimate daughters?

Not sure about a bastard queen of England.

Mary Howard?

The wife of Fitzroy? I mean since he was born a daughter in this story, that can work.

 

[FalconHonour]

Meg could work as a scottish proxy. Catherine Willoughby will be engaged to one of Henry's sons, but I'm not telling if it will be Ned or Hal yet!

Not sure about a bastard queen of England.

The wife of Fitzroy? I mean since he was born a daughter in this story, that can work.

You did say it wasn't a political match. I was trying to find you a girl Ned could legitimately meet at some state occasion or other and fall in love with that his father wouldn't approve of. The daughters of James IV came to mind 🤷‍♀️

 

[King of Danes]

Kate Parr is a good shout. Meg Douglas could work too, or Catherine Willoughby.

Meg could work in a pinch, I suppose, but she’s not really a great catch. Willoughby is a tad too young and works better for son nr. 2. A wealthy domestic match could be Anne Bouchier however. She is also a bit older

What about one of James IV's illegitimate daughters?

A bastard from Scotland is of very little worth here. Especially to an English king

Mary Howard?

Mary Howard is an interesting shout! She is the daughter of England’s premier duke after all. But I must admit that I see him marrying either a foreign match or a love match. Not impossible that he’d fall for the Howard girl though

Given that Henry might be angry with both France and the Oldenburgs after Margaret of Oldenburg was sent to France instead of England, a Cleves match could be very possible. However, Renee of France could maybe also still be an option? She’d be 5 years older than Ned but Cat was 5 years older than Henry and that worked out great here. She’d deffo be the most prestigious catch

 

[ordinarylittleme]

A wealthy domestic match could be Anne Bouchier however. She is also a bit older

No she's not - Edward's born 1516, she's born 1517

 

[King of Danes]

No she's not - Edward's born 1516, she's born 1517

Yeah. So she’s a bit older than Willoughby

 

[BlueFlowwer]

You did say it wasn't a political match.

I also added that I haven't completely made up my mind about it.

I was trying to find you a girl Ned could legitimately meet at some state occasion or other and fall in love with that his father wouldn't approve of. The daughters of James IV came to mind 🤷‍♀️

That is a scenario I have in mind to be honest. But I want a legitimate wife for him.

Meg could work in a pinch, I suppose, but she’s not really a great catch. Willoughby is a tad too young and works better for son nr. 2. A wealthy domestic match could be Anne Bouchier however. She is also a bit older

No she's not - Edward's born 1516, she's born 1517

Either one of those matches could work for Ned or Hal.

A bastard from Scotland is of very little worth here. Especially to an English king

Yes, I am vetoing that option. No bastard queen.

Mary Howard is an interesting shout! She is the daughter of England’s premier duke after all. But I must admit that I see him marrying either a foreign match or a love match. Not impossible that he’d fall for the Howard girl though

We all know those darn Howards will always be near the throne of Henry and his heirs. Or perhaps a foreign love match for him?

Given that Henry might be angry with both France and the Oldenburgs after Margaret of Oldenburg was sent to France instead of England, a Cleves match could be very possible. However, Renee of France could maybe also still be an option? She’d be 5 years older than Ned but Cat was 5 years older than Henry and that worked out great here. She’d deffo be the most prestigious catch.

A Cleves bride as a Dutch proxy? Could work! And I actually have a royal marriage planned for Renee later, but it's not with England.

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

can opine on whether Lajos II will vote for or against Freddie. Although given that Lajos' brain was named Georg of Ansbach (a Hohenzollern), the answer might be against. Add the two other ecclesiastical electors (who likely vote Habsburg- given their location) and it becomes very awkward if Freddie doesn't get a coronation. While he can still be excommunicated afterwards, it likely doesn't cause an outright deposition

Louis II pursued generally pro-Habsburg policy, so he will vote for Habsburg most likely.

 

[BlueFlowwer]

Louis II pursued generally pro-Habsburg policy, so he will vote for Habsburg most likely.

Given that Frederick gave him and Mary the inheritance of Austria, I say that there is no way in hell he will vote against the emperor. Plus with his sister as the next empress, they will be thick as thieves.

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

Given that Frederick gave him and Mary the inheritance of Austria, I say that there is no way in hell he will vote against the emperor. Plus with his sister as the next empress, they will be thick as thieves.

Well, they would need to get the inheritance by violent means first and Turks are more pressing problems.

 

[isabella]

Given that Frederick gave him and Mary the inheritance of Austria, I say that there is no way in hell he will vote against the emperor. Plus with his sister as the next empress, they will be thick as thieves.

As Louis had all the reasons for believing who Austria belonged to him by right thanks to the mutual succession pact and Anna’s husband has no way to be the heir designated of the Empire unless Frederick is crowned by the Pope in Rome and then called an election for the King of the Romans pushing for having Anna’s husband elected as his successor (but that require an agreement between him and the Electors unlike to happen). If anything Anna’s husband or Louis himself would be the choice of the Prince Electors as alternate Emperor to Frederick

 

[BlueFlowwer]

Well, they would need to get the inheritance by violent means first and Turks are more pressing problems.

No, Frederick directly gave them the austrian inheritance as heirs of Maximilian. Ferdinand is not interested in the Austrian domains and Isabella of Austria has enough to do in the Low Countries. But the turks are gonna be a pretty big problem soon.

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

No, Frederick directly gave them the austrian inheritance as heirs of Maximilian. Ferdinand is not interested in the Austrian domains and Isabella of Austria has enough to do in the Low Countries. But the turks are gonna be a pretty big problem soon.

Why Ferdinand would give up his paternal ineritance? He could reserve it for third son.

 

[isabella]

No, Frederick directly gave them the austrian inheritance as heirs of Maximilian. Ferdinand is not interested in the Austrian domains and Isabella of Austria has enough to do in the Low Countries. But the turks are gonna be a pretty big problem soon.

Frederick can not strip Ferdinand of his legitimate inheritance so he had no part in the transfer of Austria to Louis, who was likely made by the Austrian Estates themselves and as Louis is a Prince Elector, Frederick would still likely need to promise to recognize him as legitimate ruler of the Austrian lands for getting Louis’ vote in the Election

 

[BlueFlowwer]

As Louis had all the reasons for believing who Austria belonged to him by right thanks to the mutual succession pact and Anna’s husband has no way to be the heir designated of the Empire unless Frederick is crowned by the Pope in Rome and then called an election for the King of the Romans pushing for having Anna’s husband elected as his successor (but that require an agreement between him and the Electors unlike to happen). If anything Anna’s husband or Louis himself would be the choice of the Prince Electors as alternate Emperor to Frederick

William got elected as king of the Romans somewhere in 1520 ish I believe as Frederick's successor as he has no heirs of his own. Did Frederick have a coronation or not in this story? I haven't written one, mostly because I intend to keep the Empire on the fringes in this story, but he might have had one regardless. The Bavarians pushed for their own election as relatives of the Hapsburgs, but they compromised with Frederick to be elected as imperial sucessors instead, knowing that they only had to wait for a while. So that is what happened.

Is it hyper realistic? Perhaps not, but I intend to keep focus on England, Spain and France for the most parts, so I don't want to get bogged down in imperial scheming too much. The Bavarians will be emperors from 1525 and Louis and Mary got Austria, Hungary and Bohemia. So there is that.

 

[isabella]

William got elected as king of the Romans somewhere in 1520 ish I believe as Frederick's successor as he has no heirs of his own. Did Frederick have a coronation or not in this story? I haven't written one, mostly because I intend to keep the Empire on the fringes in this story, but he might have had one regardless. The Bavarians pushed for their own election as relatives of the Hapsburgs, but they compromised with Frederick to be elected as imperial sucessors instead, knowing that they only had to wait for a while. So that is what happened.

Is it hyper realistic? Perhaps not, but I intend to keep focus on England, Spain and France for the most parts, so I don't want to get bogged down in imperial scheming too much. The Bavarians will be emperors from 1525 and Louis and Mary got Austria, Hungary and Bohemia. So there is that.

Frederick need to be crowned as Emperor in Rome by the Pope for being properly the Emperor. Else he will be simply King of the Romans (and of Germany) thus making impossible an Election for his successor.

 

[BlueFlowwer]

Why Ferdinand would give up his paternal ineritance? He could reserve it for third son.

Ferdinand have no interest in any other domains than those belonging to the Spanish crown in this story. Blame Cisneros and Isabella of Portugal.

Frederick can not strip Ferdinand of his legitimate inheritance so he had no part in the transfer of Austria to Louis, who was likely made by the Austrian Estates themselves and as Louis is a Prince Elector, Frederick would still likely need to promise to recognize him as legitimate ruler of the Austrian lands for getting Louis’ vote in the Election

Let's go with that instead. Thank you. The Austrian estates were probably not to keen to have the king of Spain ruling them either.

Frederick need to be crowned as Emperor in Rome by the Pope for being properly the Emperor. Else he will be simply King of the Romans (and of Germany) thus making impossible an Election for his successor.

Jeus Christ. Fine. I will give him a coronation if its necessary. Or he has no direct sucessor and the Bavarians will win the next election. I can edit the chapters. He can stay King of Germany and the Baravians can get the crowning by the pope instead.

 

[isabella]

Ferdinand have no interest in any other domains than those belonging to the Spanish crown in this story. Blame Cisneros and Isabella of Portugal.

Let's go with that instead. Thank you. The Austrian estates were probably not to keen to have the king of Spain ruling them either.

Without doubt

Jeus Christ. Fine. I will give him a coronation if its necessary.

Pretty complicated to realize and extremely unlikely to happen

Or he has no direct sucessor and the Bavarians will win the next election. I can edit the chapters. He can stay King of Germany and the Baravians can get the crowning by the pope instead.

That work better…

 

[BlueFlowwer]

Without doubt

Thank you.

Pretty complicated to realize and extremely unlikely to happen

I hate Imperial politicking. Thus germany and the HRE remaining on the sidelines in this story.

That work better…

Well then I will do that. I aim to please.