A Britain of Panthers and Lions: House of Oldenburg Britain
- Thread starter VVD0D95
- Start date
Yes likely the Russian rise to power are pushed into the future. Also if the Wettins succeed in making the Polish crown fully hereditary, it's great news for Poland, especially because the Wettins will likely spean the next many decades simply sideline the Sejm by slowly buying up land, to create crown domain large enough that they can finance the Polish state. So I would say Poland will end up the big winners, if the Wettins end up running Poland permanent.
I think so. Wettins were portrayed as incompetent, fat idiots by their Prussian rivals, image, that even Poles have bought over time, which was absolutely false.
I must say, I'm personally very much against the propogandist stance that James II was particularly absolutist. I myself find it more likely that the "radically" Protestant Parliament would be dismissed and then a Parliament more full of non-conformists and Catholics called to help once more with governance. James knows that the Protestant establishment hates the idea of a Catholic dynasty, but I don't think he hated Parliament as an institution just the current members and their obvious disloyalty to their king.
EDIT: Though you didn't mention the date unless I should pick it up myself somehow, so it (parliament) might not have been dismissed for that long.
EDIT: Though you didn't mention the date unless I should pick it up myself somehow, so it (parliament) might not have been dismissed for that long.
Good point yes that would be a likely alliance, but Sweden needs a way to avoid potential conflict with Denmark too, with the Oldenburgs taking two crown, also with Denmark controlling all of Schlesvig-Holstein the alliance with the Gottorps makes less sense.
So here's my suggestion to marriage alliances.
Prince Christian (second son of Christian V) of Denmark[1] marry Hedvig Sophia of Sweden, if he dies as in OTL (unlikely as he died of smallpox under a trip) Prince Charles takes over.
Prince James of England marry Ulrika Eleonoa of Sweden
Prince Charles (XII) of Sweden either marry Mary of England or Sophia Hedwig of Denmark (if she hasn't end up married someone else she was engaged to John George IV of Saxony and later Emperor Joseph I[2])
[1]If he survives he may also end up as king of Poland as he was mentioned as a potential candidate.
[2] She broke the engagement over a unwillingness to convert to Catholicism, but I think with James as English heir, the price of a closely related princess have sudden risen significant, so some compromise could be reached (like she got a personal Janseist preacher, as she was crypto-Calvinist and would likely find the theology of Janseism acceptable). Outside her piousness, she was no bad politician and quite intelligent.
They was competent enough, but they took a chance with the Polish crown and it didn't pay off. But as I mentioned above there's a Oldenburg alternative
.VVD0D95
Banned
Alright intrtesting, would Charles XII bother consummating his marriage?Good point yes that would be a likely alliance, but Sweden needs a way to avoid potential conflict with Denmark too, with the Oldenburgs taking two crown, also with Denmark controlling all of Schlesvig-Holstein the alliance with the Gottorps makes less sense.
So here's my suggestion to marriage alliances.
Prince Christian (second son of Christian V) of Denmark[1] marry Hedvig Sophia of Sweden, if he dies as in OTL (unlikely as he died of smallpox under a trip) Prince Charles takes over.
Prince James of England marry Ulrika Eleonoa of Sweden
Prince Charles (XII) of Sweden either marry Mary of England or Sophia Hedwig of Denmark (if she hasn't end up married someone else she was engaged to John George IV of Saxony and later Emperor Joseph I[2])
[1]If he survives he may also end up as king of Poland as he was mentioned as a potential candidate.
[2] She broke the engagement over a unwillingness to convert to Catholicism, but I think with James as English heir, the price of a closely related princess have sudden risen significant, so some compromise could be reached (like she got a personal Janseist preacher, as she was crypto-Calvinist and would likely find the theology of Janseism acceptable). Outside her piousness, she was no bad politician and quite intelligent.
They was competent enough, but they took a chance with the Polish crown and it didn't pay off. But as I mentioned above there's a Oldenburg alternative
I think with both his potential heirs being Oldenburgs, he will close his eyes and do it for Sweden if he have same personality as in OTL. Whether he will produce a heir is the question. But honestly you can to large extent rewrite Charles XII as you want him to be. If his father ensure a peaceful relationship/alliance with Denmark, a alliance with England, his other brother-in-law and elder sister ending up as king and queen of Poland. He will likely be less paranoid about Swedish power than in OTL. He will likely see Spanish Succession War as a perfect place to test his skills as a military leader. he will also know that it will be a bad idea to seek a conflict with the Oldenburgs. He may end up childless and in that case one of his brothers-in-law will likely end up king of Sweden (James will be preferable if he's not a Catholic).
VVD0D95
Banned
Intriguing, so no great northern war, and most likely no death of carlous Rex as he did otl
Honestly the question are how he decides to use his life, he may very well return from the Spanish Succession War looking around like a addict after a fix for a new war. If the Oldenburgs sit on England, Denmark and Poland, it pretty much limit him to looking toward Russia. Of course if he waits a few year there's some wars in the 1720ties he can enter, of course France can also have been humiliated to the point that France start a new war soon after the Spanish Succession War (if the Spanish Succession War end up a disaster for France).
VVD0D95
Banned
Alright , would he be fighting in the german theatre of the war of the Spanish succession
Yes likely he was also duke of Palatinate-Zweibrücken. So he would likely fight in the Rhineland.
He died of cancer more than ten years after the POD at age 42, I think you can easily decide to let him live longer. I think it could be interesting with Charles XII which only succeed his father 10-15 years later. Charles XI seems a superior politician who got the inherint weaknesses of the Swedish empire. If he lives longer, he may be able to navigate better in international politics. But a lot depend on what you want to happen to Europe. If you plan for a Anglo-Swedish union, I would let him live a little longer. If you plan for a broad alliance network instead let him live 10-15 years longer.
Yes I personally think best case for UK would be alliance network of closely related royal families, which intermarried with each other. A Anglo-Danish Union would also be mostly acceptable, as the Danes would accept it and English parliament would see it as less of a threat to their power than a union with Sweden. But I think best case for UK are no union at all. Denmark with Gottorp will be free to look south to spread its influnece in Germany. Sweden will be able to keep develop itself internally. Poland without conflict with Sweden will be able to see royal power grow stronger, a Wettin gives access to a king with a large personal fortune, while a Oldenburg gives the king a some extra force behind him.
Chapter 1: Intrigue
VVD0D95
Banned
Chapter 1: Intrigue
William Cavendish was a man in the prime of his life. Forty-seven years of age, a premier peer, a wealthy peer, and a man with a great number of connections throughout the three kingdoms. He knew what he wanted, and how he wanted it. He feared for the Kingdoms though, there was something about the Stuarts that just suggested they did not understand how the world worked. That they wished to rule as the continentals did, and that was something he simply could not abide. He knew there were others of the country party who supported him, Shaftesbury, though not as great as his father was one such man. Then there was the man sat in front of him.
Charles Talbot the Earl of Shrewsbury, descending from a family as old if not older than William’s own, the man had been a Catholic until his conversion to the true faith in 1679, and now he had fallen out with the King. William welcomed him, even if others did not. It was good to have someone on your side who knew who that blasted man thought. William took a sip of his wine and then spoke. “You know, my lord, that things are reaching a turning point. The King has continued down the path of foolishness, by naming Jeffreys son to the position within the Treasury’s office, he has made it clear he intends to raise despotic idiots to power. I have it on good authority that Churchill has been seen discussing things with Danby.” That was a hot piece of news, Danby was still out of favour with the court, and Churchill was the King’s favourite soldier.
“That does not excuse the latest pamphlets coming out of the press, Cavendish.” Talbot replied with the same sort of sneer that a man who had been part of nobility for centuries carried. “After all, the King is known for his eccentricities, but nothing has come of it. He can appoint all the Catholics he wants, he does not have a son. And as long as Her Highness The Princess Mary is alive, she is his heir. Not Her Royal Highness Princess Anne.”
William sighed, sometimes Talbot could be remarkably dense, though what else could one expect from someone such as he. “Charles, you do not understand. The King is being pressed by his daughter, Her Royal Highness, to give the styling of such a title to all members of the Royal Family. The woman is trying to bring such foreign customs into our kingdom, and you wish to tell me that there is nothing wrong with that?” such a thought horrified William, it was a simple enough thing to get annoyed about, but still. “Furthermore, Her Highness the Princess Mary has no children, she and His Highness the Prince of Orange have had no children despite being married for almost eight years. Her Royal Highness Princess Anne has three children including a boy, who she has named after her father.”
Talbot clearly did not see what the problem was, for he replied. “And? Cavendish, I feel you are making much ado about nothing. The Princess’s father was present during the birth, he is her father. What else what she going to name him? William? Do not be ridiculous, you know as well as I do, that the Princess and the Prince of Orange despise one another. The succession cannot be bypassed, and even if Princess Mary has no children, by the time her father dies and she dies, Princess Anne might well be dead, and her son will be alive. The King is not such a fool to think he can control the religious upbringing of his daughter’s heir.”
William took another sip of wine and put the glass down. “I know that the King has been looking at all sorts of tutors for his grandson, including some from the Popish sort. He wishes for the child to garner all sorts of beliefs that stray from the true church. I also know that he has already begun looking for brides for the two granddaughters he has from Her Royal Highness. The eldest seems to be in line to marry the grandson of King Louis of France.” Talbot made a suspicious move then but William chose to ignore it. “I know that His Highness the Prince of Orange is willing to make a move should we encourage it. He worries that King Louis is looking to make a grab for the Spanish Netherlands. And as such worries that our King would support the French. He needs our support.”
Talbot looked deeply concerned then. “What do you suggest?” the thought of France and England allied together was deeply concerning, especially with the King’s wife being so young still.
“We must ensure the King cannot sire a child, and that the regiments are prepared.” William said.
Talbot said nothing for a moment, he looked deep in thought, then he responded. “I shall see what I can do.”
William nodded, relieved. Perhaps things were not as bad as he had feared.
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The following is set in February, 1687, a few weeks after the birth of James of Cumberland, the only son of Princess Anne and her husband.
William Cavendish was a man in the prime of his life. Forty-seven years of age, a premier peer, a wealthy peer, and a man with a great number of connections throughout the three kingdoms. He knew what he wanted, and how he wanted it. He feared for the Kingdoms though, there was something about the Stuarts that just suggested they did not understand how the world worked. That they wished to rule as the continentals did, and that was something he simply could not abide. He knew there were others of the country party who supported him, Shaftesbury, though not as great as his father was one such man. Then there was the man sat in front of him.
Charles Talbot the Earl of Shrewsbury, descending from a family as old if not older than William’s own, the man had been a Catholic until his conversion to the true faith in 1679, and now he had fallen out with the King. William welcomed him, even if others did not. It was good to have someone on your side who knew who that blasted man thought. William took a sip of his wine and then spoke. “You know, my lord, that things are reaching a turning point. The King has continued down the path of foolishness, by naming Jeffreys son to the position within the Treasury’s office, he has made it clear he intends to raise despotic idiots to power. I have it on good authority that Churchill has been seen discussing things with Danby.” That was a hot piece of news, Danby was still out of favour with the court, and Churchill was the King’s favourite soldier.
“That does not excuse the latest pamphlets coming out of the press, Cavendish.” Talbot replied with the same sort of sneer that a man who had been part of nobility for centuries carried. “After all, the King is known for his eccentricities, but nothing has come of it. He can appoint all the Catholics he wants, he does not have a son. And as long as Her Highness The Princess Mary is alive, she is his heir. Not Her Royal Highness Princess Anne.”
William sighed, sometimes Talbot could be remarkably dense, though what else could one expect from someone such as he. “Charles, you do not understand. The King is being pressed by his daughter, Her Royal Highness, to give the styling of such a title to all members of the Royal Family. The woman is trying to bring such foreign customs into our kingdom, and you wish to tell me that there is nothing wrong with that?” such a thought horrified William, it was a simple enough thing to get annoyed about, but still. “Furthermore, Her Highness the Princess Mary has no children, she and His Highness the Prince of Orange have had no children despite being married for almost eight years. Her Royal Highness Princess Anne has three children including a boy, who she has named after her father.”
Talbot clearly did not see what the problem was, for he replied. “And? Cavendish, I feel you are making much ado about nothing. The Princess’s father was present during the birth, he is her father. What else what she going to name him? William? Do not be ridiculous, you know as well as I do, that the Princess and the Prince of Orange despise one another. The succession cannot be bypassed, and even if Princess Mary has no children, by the time her father dies and she dies, Princess Anne might well be dead, and her son will be alive. The King is not such a fool to think he can control the religious upbringing of his daughter’s heir.”
William took another sip of wine and put the glass down. “I know that the King has been looking at all sorts of tutors for his grandson, including some from the Popish sort. He wishes for the child to garner all sorts of beliefs that stray from the true church. I also know that he has already begun looking for brides for the two granddaughters he has from Her Royal Highness. The eldest seems to be in line to marry the grandson of King Louis of France.” Talbot made a suspicious move then but William chose to ignore it. “I know that His Highness the Prince of Orange is willing to make a move should we encourage it. He worries that King Louis is looking to make a grab for the Spanish Netherlands. And as such worries that our King would support the French. He needs our support.”
Talbot looked deeply concerned then. “What do you suggest?” the thought of France and England allied together was deeply concerning, especially with the King’s wife being so young still.
“We must ensure the King cannot sire a child, and that the regiments are prepared.” William said.
Talbot said nothing for a moment, he looked deep in thought, then he responded. “I shall see what I can do.”
William nodded, relieved. Perhaps things were not as bad as he had feared.
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The following is set in February, 1687, a few weeks after the birth of James of Cumberland, the only son of Princess Anne and her husband.
