Decades of Darkness

Wow... until now, I had thought you had made up Edmund Schulthess. He certainly did better than IOTL. (That's the result of Switzerland incorporated into a bigger country, I guess.)

Yes, he certainly did better ITTL. Incidentally, there were a couple of other historical figures who appeared in ATL Germany, although the majority of those shown toward the end of the TL were invented.

Re: the below, I'm not going to respond in detail to a now banned member, but there's a few points raised which might be of more general interest.

Thanks. BTW what about Jefferson? And how are the New England and New York Founding Fathers like the Adamses or Hamilton thought of by Americans in TTL and what do they think of the antislavery opinion of many Founding Fathers?

The *USA gives little regard to most of the New England and New York founding fathers, really. Not completely forgotten, but relegated to sideshows as much as possible.

Did you avoid using major OTL figures as opposed to minor OTL figures?

I tried to use historical figures sparingly, once things got too far from the PoD. Even then, those figures are strictly speaking analogues for how someone of a similar personality and background might have done in the changed world of DoD. I did throw in a couple of ones who were reasonably notable, but not many. Álvaro Obregón and Plutarco Calles are probably the two most prominent of those.

Sorry I was asking how old he'd be because I was wondering if he might take over after Blackwood actually.

Clement Churchill has probably fled England under Blackwood, although I don't think I've ever specified exactly.

The question of Blackwood's successor will probably be settled in accordance with Mao's dictum.

Also is there any sort of fast food in this world and who would develop it?

Quite a lot of fast food, in various places. There's been some interesting suggestions below along those lines, but it's a safe description that American fast food is largely influenced by those who were designated to do most of the cooking: think Mexican, Caribbean, and sometimes slave food. Yankee food is more British influenced.

In turn, British cuisine has much less of the Indian influence which it had in OTL. *Australian cuisine, fast food included, has a much heavier and earlier Indian, Chinese and South-east Asian influence.

Hi Jared, I know this is a very random question, but what are the most important universities in the DoD universe?

There's quite a few around the place. I don't have a full global list handy, but a lot of them are cited in some of the historical works in the DoD TL.

Be warned, though, that there's an overrepresentation of *Australian universities in the quoted historical works. While *Australia has some important universities, it doesn't exactly have the world's best. Or at least not many of them. Rather, the use of *Australian sources is because I often wrote from the perspective of *Australian universities when describing events in North America or Europe, simply because those were usually less biased sources.

Is there an analogue to the Ivy League?

There is, of sorts. The closest equivalent to the Ivy League in New England includes the following 9 universities:

Brown University, in Providence, Rhode Island
Brunswick College, in Fredericton, New Brunswick
Clinton University, in Rochester, Niagara (named after De Witt Clinton, 2nd President of New England)
Columbia University, in New York City, Long Island
Dartmouth College, in Hanover, New Hampshire
Harvard University, in Cambridge, Massachusetts
King’s College, in Windsor, Nova Scotia
Union College, in Schenectady, Hudson
Yale University, in New Haven, Connecticut

Of the remaining 3 OTL Ivy League universities, Ithaca University doesn't exist as it was founded too far after the PoD, the University of Philadelphia is of course in the US of A, and what would have become Princeton in OTL didn't survive the North American War.

Do *American students go visit in New England occaisonally, (I imagine not many) or vice versa?

It happened sometimes during the thaw in *US-New England relations between about 1850-1900. Much less often since then, although it's not impossible - New England does still have several universities which have global reputations, Harvard and Union College in particular. (The irony of the latter name is not lost on some of the *US students who attend there.)

Are there fraternities or secret societies in both countries?

Fraternities or their equivalent are in both, of a fashion, but much more predominant in New England. Secret societies, well, there are rumours of secret societies in *US universities, but they seem to do a good job of keeping it secret if so.

Oh man, I love foodie WIs. I really ought to finish and post more of them. NA first, more if someone is bored or Jared likes it.

Baltimore has been mentioned as a center for immigration to the *USA, much of which is French. There are a million ways to marry all that crab to something for a cheap, delicious menu option - like a simple crab paté on a baguette, with some cucumber and horseradish - and of course it's served with a sauce. Strictly a regional thing, though.

Hamburgers are probably inevitable if you have any kind of large-scale beef ranching. Also going to be a *US thing - New England will do something different, probably based around fried cod or Atlantic salmon, plus clam-based dishes. New England Clam Pizza? There's probably a lot of working-class Dominican food in NE as well.

I would expect *Canadian fast food to come from the Irish-dominated parts of *Canada - mutton and colcannon? Would need to know more, and the niche might go to a New Englander anyway. You can probably get a little of everything in Michigan.

The key to fast food, of course, is not the menu but the business model. For that you need someone ambitious and intelligent, but for some reason disinterested in, or locked-out of, higher-class or more powerful industries. There are probably a ton of ladino restaurants in the OTL Southwest and former Mexico ripe for this - with owners not quite respectable enough to hobnob with the planters, but free, smart, talented, and driven.

So I would expect the *USA's niche for fast food to be conquered by whichever one of them works out the magic formula first and puts it in a three-ring binder. They'll probably devour enough *Northern business to have a menu that looks like a homogenized culinary envelope of *America - fried chicken, hamburgers, greens, etc. but predominantly built around Mexican/Centroamerican foods and spicings. Seviche is probably a big thing in the Newest South, and might be popularized by returning pacification troops - or it might have too strong an identification with the nationalism of recently-conquered people.

I really like these ideas! The only thing I'd add is that there will probably be a lot of Caribbean influence too, from Cuba in particular. Cuban pastries, perhaps?

That raises the question of how the *McDonald's business model works in a slave economy. The people dealing with customers and handling food are probably peons (and probably sell a lot of their product to other peons and blanks), but (shudder) there may be some marketing/promotional aspects of the design that are identified with slavery. Perhaps in DoD, the Golden Arches are Golden Chains...

Most cuisine in the *USA uses slaves or peons as workers (mixing the two is a lot rarer). More commonly rented rather than owned outright - like much of their business. And yes, a lot of the marketing would involve how good the slaves were as cooking - although I doubt they would feel the need to symbolise it as openly as golden chains. Rather, TTL's "Ronald McDonald" would be more like "Uncle Tom, the smiling burger flipper".

Incidentally I'd imagine considering how Anglophilic New England is they'd probably adapt fish and chips.

That wouldn't require Anglophillia just common sense, New England has plentiful sea food, a tradition dating back to its founding (by East Anglians) of frying fish, and fish and chips is easy practical fast food, its 1+1=2

I actually think that you would have hard time *keeping* fish and chips from being a significant food in TTL's New England. You've got the Anglophilia, the strong fishing tradition and more Potatoes than you know what to do with.

Fish and chips would definitely be up there. With Dominincan and Haitian influence in New England, and more Mexican/Central American influence in the *USA.

Yeah, fish and chips were what I had in mind - although for the sake of a more multicultural flavor it should probably be served with lime and mango salsa. Side of Spanish rice or fried potato, and you've got a moneymaker. Bet you anything there's one in Philly at least.

Yes, sounds quite likely.

As a name, 'Sambo's' is deadly - really evocative of the sort of subtly disturbing imagery TTL needs.

Yes, disturbing and horribly plausible. Sambo being the chef who combines the Mexican and Cuban styles of cuisine, perhaps. Ewwww.

Anybody wanna try a DoD/'For All Time' crossover map, btw?

For the same reasons I don't want any fan fiction set in the DoDverse, I'd prefer not to see crossovers.
 
I've been re-reading this excellent TL and I was wondering why the New Englanders started turning on their blacks so much early on ? Did it just occur in the pro Union sections of New England or was it wide spread ?
 
I really like these ideas! The only thing I'd add is that there will probably be a lot of Caribbean influence too, from Cuba in particular. Cuban pastries, perhaps?

Thank you! Like I said, I love this shit - I worked my way through my first degree in restaurant kitchens, and a lot of my best friends are still cooks.

Cuban pastries, arroz con pollo, an ATL equivalent of the 'Cuban sandwich', and an ice-cream dish topped with fried plantains - sound good? The *USA being more relaxed about recreational intoxicants, I bet they serve mojitos, too (a taste for which is an excellent way to show that Certain People Named Kevin have gone native). A lot of OTL Cuban cuisine may have vanished, though, with how early the island was conquered.

Most cuisine in the *USA uses slaves or peons as workers (mixing the two is a lot rarer). More commonly rented rather than owned outright - like much of their business. And yes, a lot of the marketing would involve how good the slaves were as cooking - although I doubt they would feel the need to symbolise it as openly as golden chains. Rather, TTL's "Ronald McDonald" would be more like "Uncle Tom, the smiling burger flipper".

Slaves in the kitchen, peons at the register? Slaves aren't trusted with money, but can do the portion of the job that peons might balk at, and dividing the labor force up ensures easier control - having a system for this might be one of the innovations that makes the big chain successful. And I like the idea of a gullah-derived lexicon of kitchen slang.

It occurs to me that the common meathead innovation of hiring cute women to staff a burger joint has probably made working up to sub-manager (the manager is definitely free) in one of these places a pretty good deal for female peons - certainly better than the domestic-help-with-a-side-of-institutionalized-rape depicted so far. It may even be a route to earning freedom - Certain Other People Named Ernesto might find someone to flirt with in one of these places.

When I have a little more time, shall we cover South Africa and Australia? I'm not sure if the GEEU will develop fast foods (although sausage carts will be plentiful, and Dutch/Belgian/German beer is going to conquer the world), but Russia is highly likely to institutionalize the piroshki as something akin to the hamburger - perhaps even internationally. A Dzerzhinsky's in every skyport!
 
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Well I think I finally finished it. Unless there is something version that was on the website. I have to say, I remain bitter about Canada and Russia's decision in the Great War, but I do hope things will improve.
 
Well I think I finally finished it. Unless there is something version that was on the website.

You referring to my request, per the automakers? I'd love to see what you came up with if so.

I have to say, I remain bitter about Canada and Russia's decision in the Great War, but I do hope things will improve.
Me too, I was really hoping things would turn around in Canada as well. :(
 
I would really like to do a DoD/Weapons of Choice crossover... with the MTF of course arriving in 1905.

Are we going to see more of Larry Blundell BTW? That guy is awesome.

Great TL in general. I strongly suspect that by the 1970s the United States however will be in trouble in much the same way the Soviet Union was at about this time (economy that cannot develop advanced technology quickly and removes a large portion of the population from the ideas pool, overextended military, massive oppressed minorities). It will be interesting to see how that goes in the novels... (When is the first one coming out?)
 
Okay then. In any case, I really do hope the Republicans can pull thru. Canada deserved a far better fate than it got.

I hope the next monarch is decent. A moderate monarch would balance things, also hope we can become a new Switzerland, with a half German King, British history, in North America and probably have a comparable number of Slavs like OTL.
 
Great TL in general. I strongly suspect that by the 1970s the United States however will be in trouble in much the same way the Soviet Union was at about this time (economy that cannot develop advanced technology quickly and removes a large portion of the population from the ideas pool, overextended military, massive oppressed minorities). It will be interesting to see how that goes in the novels... (When is the first one coming out?)

On the other hand, the United States is much better off than was our USSR. It's got a higher population density, better climate, better transportation network (natural and otherwise), and greater internal legitimacy. The society has been on a straight line of successes and growth for over a century and has every reason to be confident in its ability to adapt to changes where necessary. That's a sharp contrast to the USSR, which had been forced to give half the useful land of the country away and fought a war across the rest only a generation before. Nor has this United States faced the apocalyptic destruction that the Soviets did during World War II. In terms of population, economy, industrial capacity, and flexibility to adjust to new concepts, the United States is better off.

I get your point, and it's not unwarranted, but I'd argue that the things we think of as Soviet, Russian, or Communist were mostly unrelated. Instead, they were largely the result any poor, cold country would have when turned into a warzone.
 
On the other hand, the United States is much better off than was our USSR. It's got a higher population density, better climate, better transportation network (natural and otherwise), and greater internal legitimacy. The society has been on a straight line of successes and growth for over a century and has every reason to be confident in its ability to adapt to changes where necessary. That's a sharp contrast to the USSR, which had been forced to give half the useful land of the country away and fought a war across the rest only a generation before. Nor has this United States faced the apocalyptic destruction that the Soviets did during World War II. In terms of population, economy, industrial capacity, and flexibility to adjust to new concepts, the United States is better off.

I get your point, and it's not unwarranted, but I'd argue that the things we think of as Soviet, Russian, or Communist were mostly unrelated. Instead, they were largely the result any poor, cold country would have when turned into a warzone.

Maybe in the mid-1930s it was doing okay, but then again, Matt, so was the Soviet Union in the 1960s. Here's why things are eventually going to turn nasty for the U.S. barring some sort of A.S.B. intervention, or extreme good fortune:

1.)The U.S. was still fighting guerillas in Colombia and only barely temporarily pacified Chile.
2.)It was mentioned that Australians were barred entry to any area of the U.S. after 1947. Don't think that could've been any minor incident, that's for sure.
3.) In OTL's 1950s, we had just won WWII and the economy was no longer in a depression. DoD's U.S. mostly got their asses handed to them outside of North America, along with Mullins's New England, Britain and France.
4.)Can't forget the blacks or Mexicans, either. Sooner or later, there WILL be a mass revolt that will, in fact, probably result in massive amounts of bloodshed. And there will probably be at least a few radicalized white Americans who'll be all too glad to assist them.
5.)And what of Argentina, Brazil and Canada? All of them hated the U.S., and the military was already badly overstretched as it is in 1935.

All in all, it really does make sense when you think about it. Perhaps the U.S. will see very good fortune, and may just survive until the late '80s, early '90s. But after that, all bets are off.
 
Maybe in the mid-1930s it was doing okay, but then again, Matt, so was the Soviet Union in the 1960s. Here's why things are eventually going to turn nasty for the U.S. barring some sort of A.S.B. intervention, or extreme good fortune:

1.)The U.S. was still fighting guerillas in Colombia and only barely temporarily pacified Chile.
2.)It was mentioned that Australians were barred entry to any area of the U.S. after 1947. Don't think that could've been any minor incident, that's for sure.
3.) In OTL's 1950s, we had just won WWII and the economy was no longer in a depression. DoD's U.S. mostly got their asses handed to them outside of North America, along with Mullins's New England, Britain and France.
4.)Can't forget the blacks or Mexicans, either. Sooner or later, there WILL be a mass revolt that will, in fact, probably result in massive amounts of bloodshed. And there will probably be at least a few radicalized white Americans who'll be all too glad to assist them.
5.)And what of Argentina, Brazil and Canada? All of them hated the U.S., and the military was already badly overstretched as it is in 1935.

All in all, it really does make sense when you think about it. Perhaps the U.S. will see very good fortune, and may just survive until the late '80s, early '90s. But after that, all bets are off.

I agree with everything you said except 5. Canada, Brazil and Argentina can do fuck all against the United States for the foreseeable future. If they do try and get their revenge, it will be when the US is already past the point of no return...
 
I agree with everything you said except 5. Canada, Brazil and Argentina can do fuck all against the United States for the foreseeable future. If they do try and get their revenge, it will be when the US is already past the point of no return...

I agree, they'll kick 'em while they're down, but only then.
 
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