"Fight and be Right"

Where does the new assembly sit? I understand the major reduction in seats but if it in the Houses of Parliament I can imagine 300 MPs being quite spread out in the Commons.

Well, Parliament was quite badly bombed during the Great War, (even worse than OTL, where the Commons was entirely destroyed) so even though the ultimate aspiration is to move back in, the Provisional Government (which, as an aside, isn't 'provisional' at all after the 1936 General Election, but these terms stick...) never quite gets round to it. Had the Revolution not happened, the Commons chamber would doubtless have been rebuilt in a U-shape similarly to its offspring in Canberra; the only reason this didn't happen post war was thanks to the personal intervention of Winston Churchill, who correctly argued that doing this would lose the 'cockpit of the nation' factor.

IOTL, the Commons evicted the Lords from their Chamber and Peers sat in the Royal Gallery between 1941 and 1950, but as the Palace has suffered worse damage ITTL this isn't really going to work. The next option would be *County Hall across the river, but that will probably be too small, as will returning to Parliaament's roots and squeezing into the Chapter House at the Abbey, so if Parliament is determined to sit in Westminster it'll have to be whatever is built on the sites of *Methodist Central Hall and the Middlesex Guildhall.

Assuming the former of the two is built (and I can't see why it wouldn't be, although like Westminster Cathedral it might not look the same ITTL), I can see it rather appeaking to Lloyd George's non-conformist roots.

As a side note, FWIW 300 MPs fill the present Commons perfectly adequately (albeit with plenty of room to stretch), and normally occupancy is considerably lower in the course of your average debate. You seldom get more than a couple of hundred Peers in the Lords at any one time and yet the place generally looks pretty full when it happens.


Another question about the Syndicalists - what is there connection to the British Socialist Party? After it was banned did it disappear completely or continue underground. Did the move towards Syndicalism amongst radicals effectively dissolve it?

There isn't much of one, institutionally- the Syndicalists see the BSP as a rather ineffectual Bourgeios talking-shop, although in reality a fair bit of the organising structure persisted in an underground way to be co-opted by the Syndicalists later on.

However, Bottomley et al are going to want some sort of democratic fig-leaf, so I rather assumed that an entirely ineffectual lefty party of the George Lansbury handwringing variety would be tacitly encouraged. This would be rather compromised come 1936; hence the Action Party, of which more below.


I understand its a rough idea but I am wondering what each of the parties are going to be like here. We of course know several of them but I'm just wondering what they're all like, specifically the Action Party. They're the Leftist/Socialist party in this time frame right? How's does their coalition with the New Democrats heirs-to-Unionism?

The way I saw it, the Action Party are Social Democrats, basically, but with a rather corporatist bent; think New Labour in "A Greater Britain", so lots of Important Words with Capital Letters and sentences without verbs. They've absorbed what was left of the constitutional Left by default and got a lot of working class seats, but didn't neccesarily deserve to, and aren't as radical as their electorates, by and large; one of the reasons why the Party is the vehicle the Syndicalists use to take power is the fact that by 1938, it's completely hollowed-out and in danger of collapsing as an electoral force. You'll notice that they're outflanked on the Left too, although on reflection I think it makes more sense to say the "Syndicalists" represented in the Commons are actually more Menshevik-ish.

As for Action's coalition with the New Democrats, it works quite well- too well reallly, as once in Government the Party loses any anti-establishment credibility it might otherwise have had.


Secondly are their any parties that don't have seats in Parliament that have any moderate influence (Besides say regional and syndicalist terrorist parties) durring the Alexandrian Interregnum? Following David Lloyd George's death did Wedgewood-Benn's Action party keep the coalition with the New Democrats when he took over or did they turn to other parties to support their government?

I would have thought that there would have been a variety of more regional parties represented in the National Assemblies- Nationalists of varying stripes, and the like- and within the Commons, I assumed that the independents would contain various smaller groups (for example, the Cornish Independent may well be a *Mebyon Kernow type).

As for the fate of the Coalition, I hadn't quite worked out how it fell apart, only that by 1938 the Government was a very shaky coalition of Action and assorted Lefty scrapings, independents, etc. This probably requires a General Election given the arithmetic, which is one of the reasons why I hadn't got round to redrafting this and thinking through all the implications. The problem I have is that Action is more likely to lose ground then be in position to be the largest party in Government.

Hm, maybe the New Democrats remain the largest party but fail to make an agreement with the Liberal-Conservatives or Nationals, leaving a weakened Action forced to combine with a surging far Left? That, of course, requires a crisis to set things off- I think I posited one or more of of the Devolved Governments getting knocked over (or not) by the far-left or far-right, which is probably enough. I like the concept of an Edinburgh Bürgerbräukeller- especially as it'd just be in time for the whole Ulster thing to kick off.


Last bunch of questions on the topic, related to the first, how do these parties deal with the Revolution? Is it everyone against the Syndicalist and then off to reeducation and exile for them? Do any parties decide that the Workers Republic is a decent idea or at least something not worth fighting? Does anyone try to create a third front in the War in the Home Islands in opposition to both the Reds and Blues?

I imagine there's something of a boiled frog effect whereby a lot of people are uncomfortable with Red Friday but the Government is (just barely) constitutional enough to satisfy the Centre. Until the whole thing begins to deteriorate, at which point the constitutional parties are going to split. Remember it's not as simple as a Revolution, not really; it's the Blues who are trying to overthrow the (just about) lawful Government, no matter how questionable the circumstances were surrounding its formation.

Which doesn't mean that a lot of Blues are actually rather pink, or even green, of course- a fair few lefties and nationalists are willing to go to arms to prevent the imposition of the Workers' Republic.


That's quite odd, even under the Hare-Clarke method there is still an advantage to being a united party in order to minimise preference leakage and get more quotas, plus the obvious benefits of economies of scale in areas like membership, campaigning etc. Of course I'm guessing that this election was very shortly after the collapse of the Unionist government so maybe the dust has yet to settle and if they had had more time the Orange and Nationals would have merged but events overtook them.

There is that- one thing I thought would be a dividing issue is that the Orange types were fervently anti-Home Rule ("Home Rule is Rome Rule", and all that), while the Nationals are rather more circumspect, realising that they might do rather well in the Shire seats in the English Assembly.


This is/was a great timeline. I am curious though, exactly how truly democratic is the FWR? It seems much more so than the Soviet Union or China (I know, the were communists, not syndicalists) but is it a true democracy (if that even really exists)?
Scipio

I'll repeat my answer the last time I was asked this, if that's ok- but King Henry is basically right.

"Short answer? It varies. Some Unions, particularly the smaller ones, will be pretty democratic; others, particularly those who get captured by a dictatorial individual or clique, will be less so. Just as OTL, many Unions will suffer from having low participation amongst the normal workforce, allowing the insiders and ambitious types to make decisions on very low turnouts.

I think the paradox of the FWR is that on a local, workplace level, it probably is quite democratic. The second you get into regional and national government though, let alone Federal, you’re in the realm of bloc votes and beer and sandwiches."


Fantastic map! But I do wonder why Orkney and Shetland have elected a member of the Partaidh Gaidhlig. Given what's been said about the continuing power of landed interests, I could imagine that Orkneymen might be almost as keen as the Gaels on getting rid of landlords by the 1930s, so did they hop on the land-language-people bandwagon and assume the language meant in their case was Norn? :p If, as seems likely, there's a strong strain of Free Kirk radicalism in the movement, that would be another thing in common.

Excellent point, and I freely admit that I'm not sure- it's not my field really- but I would have thought the land reform issue would be the obvious issue. I think you've demonstrated rather wonderfully the dangers of doing a map like this actually- everyone has expert local knowledge!


Re-reading some FabR-related stuff after coming off an English civil war binge, I was struck by McMillan's invocation of Charles II. The drawing of parallels to Cromwell et al is inevitable, I suppose - but if you forget all about the content of each side's agenda and the nature of the issues and look only at the personalities and events, it seems to me that the comparison is remarkably accurate.

You know, I hadn't thought of it quite in these terms but that really is rather good. I can see that catching on ITTL, although not in the FWR for reasons mentioned below.


What's the Syndicalist historiography of of the Civil War? You mentioned that the Levellers would make good heroes for a Workers' Epic, and given the Irish nationalist connection I can't see any love for Cromwell, so I suppose everything I just said was counter-revolutionary nonsense. :D

Well, I've made Syndicalist historiography cleave pretty closely to the ILP's take on things IOTL, so to quote from the horses' mouth as it were;

"The political ascendency of the British oligarchy was achieved in the seventeenth century as the result of a series of revolutions. At first the merchants, and the oligarchic House of Commons which was their political instrument, had to share power with the Calvinist (Puritan) Church- the revolutionary 'first international' of the era in question- and were also for a short time subordinated to the military dictatorship of their Fuhrer Oliver Cromwell (1653-8), the Founder of the British Reich"

Anti-fascism being less of an issue ITTL (though the Syndicalists will not like the Integralists much) I think Cromwell is seen as the British example of Marxist Bonapartism; the Levellers et al being the true revolutionaries. This would also help to sidestep the religious issues bound up in the Civil War re Ireland, which is handy.


Oh BTW, Ed, would you mind terribly if I at some time wrote something on Sweden's political evolution ITTL?

Please, do feel free! I might add it to a later edition of the "World of FaBR". Mind PMing me anything you come up with?


Not knowing a lot about the proper politics of the 1900-1940 period though, what were the chances of any sort of electoral reform of that level happening IOTL? I can't imagine a lot of people being for it, what with the upheaval caused by so many more voters being involved after the reforms that had occurred in the mid/late 1800s and the early 1900s.

Well, IOTL the Commons actually voted for AV in (IIRC) 1918 or thereabouts, only for the Lords to veto the proposal; I think the idea was AV for county seats and STV for Borough ones, and this was even partly implented in the University seats, which saw Members elected by STV until their abolition in 1950. Avoid the Liberal split or patch it up somehow and you could easily see it stick; there's a decent window there.


Also, just curious... but as a fellow wet Conservative, where do you lie on the AV referendum? Personally I'm voting Yes because I think it's a fairly British change if it goes through: slightly more proportional, slightly fairer, removes most of the need to do tactical voting, but retains the main bits of the FPTP system that people like - namely one member constituencies.

I'm a firm No actually, precisely because of the 'Britishness' of the change you mention; ie a half-arsed mess for political expediency that pleases nobody and doesn't actually improve anything.

In my view AV's a crap system- as Roy Jenkins pointed out, it's actually less proportional than FPTP. At best, it won't change much- at worst, it'll give us even larger majorities, which is deeply unhealthy.

I would actually be delighted to see a genuine choice between FPTP and STV; they provide two very different approaches to politics, and personally I would be genuinely undecided on which way I'd vote. Multi-Member constituencies and STV (known before the war as "British Proportional Representation") have impeccable British pedigree; MPs have already been elected through the system, after all! Clegg was entirely right when he called AV a 'miserable little compromise'.

What frustrates me is that so many AV enthusiasts seem to be STV fans who see it as a stepping stone to something better, without stopping to think that adopting AV will probably kill their pet project for a generation. It's a bit like a juror condemning a prisoner because even though they're pretty sure he's not guilty they know he committed some other crime- you have to vote on the basis of the question before you, not what you would like the question to be.
 
Also, just curious... but as a fellow wet Conservative, where do you lie on the AV referendum? Personally I'm voting Yes because I think it's a fairly British change if it goes through: slightly more proportional, slightly fairer, removes most of the need to do tactical voting, but retains the main bits of the FPTP system that people like - namely one member constituencies.

MILLANDSON

At the risk of verging into politics are you sure that's something the population likes? The establishment does because it makes it easier to control matters and power blocs always prefer monopolies if they can get it.;) They often say people prefer having single member seats but but I know of no actual evidence that people do. Multi-member seats do give ordinary people more power as it gives them some choice.

Steve
 
Well, IOTL the Commons actually voted for AV in (IIRC) 1918 or thereabouts, only for the Lords to veto the proposal; I think the idea was AV for county seats and STV for Borough ones, and this was even partly implented in the University seats, which saw Members elected by STV until their abolition in 1950. Avoid the Liberal split or patch it up somehow and you could easily see it stick; there's a decent window there.




I'm a firm No actually, precisely because of the 'Britishness' of the change you mention; ie a half-arsed mess for political expediency that pleases nobody and doesn't actually improve anything.

In my view AV's a crap system- as Roy Jenkins pointed out, it's actually less proportional than FPTP. At best, it won't change much- at worst, it'll give us even larger majorities, which is deeply unhealthy.

I would actually be delighted to see a genuine choice between FPTP and STV; they provide two very different approaches to politics, and personally I would be genuinely undecided on which way I'd vote. Multi-Member constituencies and STV (known before the war as "British Proportional Representation") have impeccable British pedigree; MPs have already been elected through the system, after all! Clegg was entirely right when he called AV a 'miserable little compromise'.

What frustrates me is that so many AV enthusiasts seem to be STV fans who see it as a stepping stone to something better, without stopping to think that adopting AV will probably kill their pet project for a generation. It's a bit like a juror condemning a prisoner because even though they're pretty sure he's not guilty they know he committed some other crime- you have to vote on the basis of the question before you, not what you would like the question to be.

I fear you're right on the last point.:( While AV is only marginally better than FPTP and may under some circumstances even do worse than it in terms of democratic representation of voters desires a vote for it could undermine the degree of unity in the pressure for reform. Many might argue that the reform is enough in itself and not want to 'waste' time on more efficient reforms.

This of course presumes that the vote is won [unlikely I fear] and the even less likely chances that David Cameron would follow a yes vote by allowing legislation on it. I think Nick Clegg needed to have held out for a vote on STV and some at least verbal support that if the population voted for it the government would make some commitment to the policy. Given that Liberal popularity [and support for reform which is tied to it] would inevitably take a hit because of the adoption of so many Tory policies and the dominance of the anti-change elements in the propaganda area I think even then a yes vote would be unlikely. [Possibly my age but feeling increasingly convinced that people aren't willing to see serious reform to revitalise Britain in this area or any other because their got so used to the free ride mentality and the inability of people to change the basic nature of British society]:(:(.

Steve
 
I've got a question with regards to the legality of the Syndicalist government immediately after Red Friday - how is the de facto position reconciled with the constitutional requirements? Do Mosley, Morrison and their like brazenly demand a summonses from King Alexander which he grants in a moment of weakness? Or is there an alternative procedure which has been put in place after the Unionists are overthrown - are they voted in by a House of Commons from which their opponents have been removed in a Pride's Purge-esque situation? I think that the latter makes more sense but if Alexander had given them a commission it might fit in with the perception of certain, more right wing Blues that he wasn't up to the job and shouldn't have replaced William V in the first place.
 
That's fair EdT :) I'll admit that I'd probably prefer STV, but I can't see Labour or the Conservatives letting that happen any time soon, and I can't see the general public having it either, with their current "all politicians are scum and we hate them, especially if they're Nick Clegg" views.

On topic:

I actually did a quick look at electoral reform between 1917 and 1931, and it's quite interesting.

The only reason we didn't get AV or STV in 1917 was because the Lords wanted STV, and the Commons wanted AV, and they wouldn't compromise, and the only reason we didn't get AV in 1931 was because, despite the AV Bill getting through the Commons, the minority Labour government collapsed before the Bill had been passed through the Lords, so the Bill was lost.

It's a bit of a shame that it's been 80 years since we last tried to get at least some electoral reforms for the UK general elections, it'd have been interesting to see what it would have been like if AV or STV had been passed back then...

Hmmmm *has an idea, if he gets the time and does the research, for a possibly interesting AH*...
 
It's a little more complex than that - the Labour government was happy to see the Lords delay the AV bill, and in fact Ramsay MacDonald was banking upon his government falling before the Lords were forced to pass it (electoral reform didn't fit in with MacDonald's long term strategy of squeezing out the Liberals). The Lords insisted upon STV for the cities in 1917 as a means of wrecking electoral reform that time around, and Lloyd George dropped it in order to assuage his Conservative coalition partners. Of course back in 1917 electoral reform wasn't nearly as big a priority for the Liberals as it was later to become.
 
Hi all,
Just wanted to say- you may have seen this already, but if not, check out my new Timeline, "The Caesariad", here. I'll be posting the first part in the next few days!

No Edwardians or Fuzzy Wuzzies I'm afraid, but I can promise lots of Classical skullduggery.... :rolleyes:
 
Hi all,
Just wanted to say- you may have seen this already, but if not, check out my new Timeline, "The Caesariad", here. I'll be posting the first part in the next few days!

No Edwardians or Fuzzy Wuzzies I'm afraid, but I can promise lots of Classical skullduggery.... :rolleyes:

Damnit Ed.

We want more steampunk British Empire IIIIINNNN SPAAAAACCCCEEEE!!!!! damnit... :mad:
 
What is Taurida like? It intrigues me.

My guess is it's your average small German-friendly Eastern European state, with a German prince as its monarch (Khan, maybe?) and, given how the capital is written as Aqmescit instead of Simferopol, with Crimean Tatar promoted over Ukrainian and Russian.
 
Well I just spend the better part of this last week reading this TL, and I must say Good Show EdT, Good show indeed , Im kind of mad of myself for not reading this while you were still in the process of writings, cause im left with so many questions and suggestion after finishing it lol(I could learn alot about have a focused goal for the end of a TL, I think a reason why my TL"s never get finished because I always want to try to bring it up to the present day lol)...but a great product inded, and I cant wait to see if your able to secure publishing for it...Keep it comming:D
 
First off, I'd just like to say thanks to those of you who have bought copies of the book here- it's bought me the odd beer or two and I'm very grateful! Copies are still on sale of course if you fancy getting your hands on one... :rolleyes:


What is Taurida like? It intrigues me.

My guess is it's your average small German-friendly Eastern European state, with a German prince as its monarch (Khan, maybe?) and, given how the capital is written as Aqmescit instead of Simferopol, with Crimean Tatar promoted over Ukrainian and Russian.

Pretty much- I saw the place founded as something of a Tartar homeland, and a reasonably enlightened place, assuming Noman Celebicihan is running the show, which probably he is. I never quite decided on whether it was a Republic or Monarchy; depends on whether they can find a sufficiently horsey minor Hapsburg or Hohenzollern to convert to Islam, I guess...


Well I just spend the better part of this last week reading this TL, and I must say Good Show EdT, Good show indeed , Im kind of mad of myself for not reading this while you were still in the process of writings, cause im left with so many questions and suggestion after finishing it lol(I could learn alot about have a focused goal for the end of a TL, I think a reason why my TL"s never get finished because I always want to try to bring it up to the present day lol)...but a great product inded, and I cant wait to see if your able to secure publishing for it...Keep it comming:D

Really glad you enjoyed the TL- and if you have any questions, please do feel free to ask!
 
First off, I'd just like to say thanks to those of you who have bought copies of the book here- it's bought me the odd beer or two and I'm very grateful! Copies are still on sale of course if you fancy getting your hands on one... :rolleyes:

Ayup, my parents have recieved mine. It mails for 常州 in a couple days, so I should have it by the end of the week. Exciting times.
 
I'm bumpin'.

I just heard of this TL the other day, and read through it in pretty much one go. Shit! This is in like my top five favorite alternate history related products ever, let alone stuff for free. I love all the extras, too. I'd love to see an issue of FACTS from 2011. Did I see somewhere that there was going to be a novel in this setting? Because if so I will stone cold sign up for that right here and now.

Also I hope Syndicalist Britain isn't too awful, though I'm getting the feeling that it will be (re-education camps and 1984 callbacks are not a good sign). Give the workers a chance to wear their jumpsuits in peace!

EDIT: I'm also insanely curious about the Congo and the US's effects on each other past the 40s.
 
I have to second Sicarius. I read this TL a few weeks ago and was duly impressed. A truly awesome amount of work went into this TL, and no doubt it took many drafts and revisions to weave all those facts together into a compelling story. My hat is off to you EdT!
 
One thing I liked is probably best illustrated by something I loathe in other TLs - like 20 years after the POD people just start making prominent people the hell up. "President of the United States, uh, John ... Johnson." Practically every character in F&BR was a real person, down to once-mentioned ambassadors.

Also loved the fictional Flashman entry. I actually did something similar before I had read F&BR, in my own recent TL. I liked the sly later reference you put in to Flash for Freedom!, it makes me wonder what other little nods to stuff I missed. More to find for a second readthrough!

EDIT: I really want to print up the THE BRITISH REVOLUTION pamphlet, sufficiently weather it to look realistic-ish, and then sneakily hide it in a second-hand bookstore, to suitably blow the mind of the discoverer.
 
I just heard of this TL the other day, and read through it in pretty much one go. Shit! This is in like my top five favourite alternate history related products ever, let alone stuff for free.

I have to second Sicarius. I read this TL a few weeks ago and was duly impressed. A truly awesome amount of work went into this TL, and no doubt it took many drafts and revisions to weave all those facts together into a compelling story. My hat is off to you EdT!

Really glad you both enjoyed this so much. It’s always nice to see people are still reading this! And of course if you want a hard copy, there are available from certain good websites… ;)


I love all the extras, too. I'd love to see an issue of FACTS from 2011. Did I see somewhere that there was going to be a novel in this setting? Because if so I will stone cold sign up for that right here and now.

Also I hope Syndicalist Britain isn't too awful, though I'm getting the feeling that it will be (re-education camps and 1984 callbacks are not a good sign). Give the workers a chance to wear their jumpsuits in peace!

EDIT: I'm also insanely curious about the Congo and the US's effects on each other past the 40s.

2011 might be a bit distant, although I have tentatively worked out a few things up to the 1970s in places. Once you start having to use people born post-PoD though, things rapidly get unrecognisable very quickly, which was one of the reasons why I stopped.

Oh, and yes, I am plodding away at a novel set in the TL; it’s set in 1917, is something of a pastiche of the John Buchan-style genre, and covers some of the events that leads to the effective demise of British democracy. I’ve also had a few ideas for something a bit more noire-ish sent in 1948 and involving a member of the Bureau of State Security (*FBI) being sent to investigate the murder of an American diplomat in London. I figured that’d be quite a fun way of showing the FWR up close and personal, and to make the point that while it’s certainly got elements of 1984, it’s Orwellian in plenty of other senses too.


One thing I liked is probably best illustrated by something I loathe in other TLs - like 20 years after the POD people just start making prominent people the hell up. "President of the United States, uh, John ... Johnson." Practically every character in F&BR was a real person, down to once-mentioned ambassadors.

Verisimilitude is important to me- and ultimately, why make somebody up when you can spend half an hour on wikipedia and find somebody who is suitable for the role? It makes everything seem a lot more convincing. The difficulty comes, of course, when you go far enough beyond the PoD that the people will naturally be different, or avert something like WW1 and dump a whole load of talented and prominent people who didn’t have the chance to become well known IOTL on the world stage. I rather dodged that latter issue for the 1940 stuff, of course.


Also loved the fictional Flashman entry. I actually did something similar before I had read F&BR, in my own recent TL. I liked the sly later reference you put in to Flash for Freedom!, it makes me wonder what other little nods to stuff I missed. More to find for a second readthrough!

Well, the tradition IOTL is for Flashman’s role in important events to be hushed up; I thought it was fitting for the same thing to happen ITTL as well…


EDIT: I really want to print up the THE BRITISH REVOLUTION pamphlet, sufficiently weather it to look realistic-ish, and then sneakily hide it in a second-hand bookstore, to suitably blow the mind of the discoverer.

I keep meaning to print a copy myself actually- the trick is to do it on sugar paper, I think. I based its look and typesetting on a rather lovely wartime series called the Oxford Pamphlets on World Affairs, for what it’s worth- I have a more or less full set at home, along with a couple of ILP pamphlets that provided the inspiration for some of the ideological stuff.
 
I actually had some ideas for some fan fic stuff on this a while back set in the present day and the 1970s, but I'm not sure if I could get round to firing anything off or even if Ed would be all that interested in someone doing that kind of thing.
 
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