Isabella and Edward??

[CaptainAmerica]

The Spanish Rose TL: Edward and Isabella

What if Edward of Westminster, son of Henry VI, married Isabella of Castile?? This Isabella would later become Queen of Castile, and become one of the most powerful rulers in Europe. How would this change the outcome of the War of the Roses and would it lead to a personal union between England and Castile??

This is my first TL and i hope you enjoy it...
POD: October 19 1469- Isabella of Castile refuses to marry Ferdinand of Aragon

1469: War of the Roses continues to rage in England and Warwick the Kingmaker has just allied with Clarence, brother of Edward IV. Warwick soon raises an army and captures the unpopular king. However Richard of Gloucester remains loyal to his brother and rallies the nobles around Edward. Warwick is forced to release Edward and flee to France. Edward heir to the Lancaster family and his mother Margaret of Anjou still plot to reclaim the throne of England.

1470: Edward IV control over England is waning in due part to the high taxes and the influence of the Woodville Family, which has angered the powerful Neville family and other important nobles. However John Neville’s, Earl Warwick’s brother, support of Edward allows Edward IV to keep the throne. Margaret and Edward Lancaster agree to meet Warwick on the urgings of King Louis XI of France. They agree to grant more land to Warwick and the Neville family in turn for support against Edward IV. Warwick returns to England and is able to overthrow Edward because of the support of John Neville. Edward is forced to flee at the same time that Edward Lancaster and his mother are returning to England and reinforce Warwick. Henry VI is restored to the throne and Edward Lancaster renamed heir to the kingdom.

1471: Edward the York plots with his brother in law to retake England. However the Duke of Burgundy has little desire to restore Edward to the Throne, yet he still supplies Edward with money and men. In England Warwick has taken Edward Prince of Wales under his wing in the hope of gaining more favors for the Neville family and to create a puppet king. Margaret of Anjou has other plans, namely having Edward remain independent of Warwick but also having Edward learn from Warwick. In Castile, Isabella has remained unwed, which has caused the nobles of Spain to worry. They are worried that she will die childless causing the Castilian throne to pass to Joan. Warwick is looking to increase England’s prestige and is looking for a princess to wed to young Edward. Warwick proposes a marriage of Isabella and Edward to King Enrique. He agrees in the hope of allowing his daughter Joan succeed him instead of Isabella. In Burgundy, Edward the York prepares to launch his invasion of England, which will decide which family will sit on the throne be it York or Lancaster

 

[Dr. Waterhouse]

would this make a good TL??

This is a little bit outside my area of familiarity, but I say go to it friend! For me the English consequences are almost an afterthought--No unification of Spain? No Empire of Charles V? No Austrian Habsburgs and Spanish Habsburgs essentially dividing up non-French Europe? And what does this mean down the road for the Cabots and Columbuses of this era? Have at it.

Also, these Anglo-Spanish royal marriages do work out fabulously well. Let's give this one a try. What's the worst that can happen?

 

[Zimmerwald1915]

This is a little bit outside my area of familiarity, but I say go to it friend! For me the English consequences are almost an afterthought--No unification of Spain? No Empire of Charles V? No Austrian Habsburgs and Spanish Habsburgs essentially dividing up non-French Europe? And what does this mean down the road for the Cabots and Columbuses of this era? Have at it.

Also, these Anglo-Spanish royal marriages do work out fabulously well. Let's give this one a try. What's the worst that can happen?

Edward could invent the Church of England a century early

 

[DuQuense]

Ya it should be interesting... How will the War of the Roses end now?? We wont have no Henry VI or Elizabeth Of York to marry and end it.

If Edward of Westminster, son of Henry VI, was betrothed to Isabella of Castile ?Would whe have a War of the Roses?

 

[CaptainAmerica]

well i was going to have the Lancaster have an more sucessful 1470 instead of OTL which will allow Edward to get bethrothed to a princess.. and Warwick will enter an alliance with Lancaster under the pretense of more lands rather than a marriage between Anne and Edward

 

[Grey Wolf]

If Edward of Westminster, son of Henry VI, was betrothed to Isabella of Castile ?Would whe have a War of the Roses?

Can't see that we wouldn't, since in OTL the guy existed and was clearly going to marry someone at some time. A betrothal in childhood is the potential for a marriage, but not a binding contract, so Richard of York would still be the royal nearest to the throne, wanting his powerbase etc.

It MIGHT affect events in 1460 though, depending on whether the same rallying to March occurs or not. More nobles might hold back if the heir to Henry VI is betrothed, though I am not sure why

It would REALLY impact later, after Edward IV's first reign, during the Readeption of Henry VI. If Isabella is or gets pregnant, then even the OTL chain of events won't eliminate the Lancastrian house

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

 

[Tocomocho]

This Isabella would later become Queen of Castile, and become one of the most powerful rulers in Europe.

Not really that sure.

 

[LacheyS]

How about Warwick abandons his planned invasion of Burgundy?

The Earl of Clarence will flow wherever the tide is flowing. Watch him.

Anne could marry some appropriate noble on the right side.

I think King Henry VI still dies very quickly once the Nevilles and Margaret are established.

So we have King Edward V ruling from 1470 and, presuming that Warwick survives, I see him being concerned about the planned marriage. He favoured France over Burgundy, so would likely favour France over Castile.

On the other side:

What happens to the Inquisition? Lots of Aragon Jews and non-Catholics have more peaceful lives. Maybe lots of English don't if she cracks down on them too.

Maybe a relationship between Aragon and Portugal?

Where does Christopher Columbua go from his money now? Is he butterflied away? Would he have gone to England for help?

IIRC, Ferdinand's realm wasn't terribly stable. Isabella might be convinced to try to expand her territory at Ferdinand's expense at some stage.

 

[bastian]

... would it lead to a personal union between England and Castile??

I think that would lead to a personal union but to various problems too.
The staff union between the crowns of Castile and Aragon also led to a preponderance of Castile. An example of this is that Navarre was into the hands of Castile.
We should see who would be the dominant nation between Castile and England because England can´t allow to be reigned from Castilla and Castilla would not allow it to be governed from England. Carlos passage of a German king to be totally spanish, so I think it would be the dominating Castilla. But do not take too long to break the union as not too late to break with Germany in. I think in the end there would be kings of the same dynasty in Castile and England as there were in Austria and Spain.

 

[Tocomocho]

What happens to the Inquisition?

During the Castilian Civil War, both the monarchist side's candidate to the archbishopry of Toledo (Cisneros) and the nobility's side's candidate (Carrillo) defended the implantation of an inquisition and the reform of the local church. So no matter if Isabella is crowned queen of Castile or not, bond events are bound to happen.

Lots of Aragon Jews and non-Catholics have more peaceful lives.

I hope you aren't implying that it is because of a lack of inquisition in Aragon. Aragon actually had an inquisition for 2 centuries by then. It was Castile who copied Aragon, not the other way. Although, without the more "enthusiastic" Isabella by his side, it's likely Ferdinand will not implement the conversion or expulsion policy in Aragon. Not because he was an enthusiast of religious diversity, but because he did not care about religious issues as much as more practical military and political ones.

Maybe lots of English don't if she cracks down on them too.

Well, how deep was Jewish presence in England by that time? What was the general opinion on them? If I'm not wrong England actually expelled the Jews one or two times in the Late Middle Ages, so another one wouldn't be especially surprising.

Maybe a relationship between Aragon and Portugal?

Depends. What are the sides of TTL CCW? If they aren't drawn into opposite sides like in OTL they'll just ignore each other.

Where does Christopher Columbua go from his money now? Is he butterflied away? Would he have gone to England for help?

He send his brother to England and was refused. Columbus scale of sponsors was Portugal>Castile>England>France.

IIRC, Ferdinand's realm wasn't terribly stable. Isabella might be convinced to try to expand her territory at Ferdinand's expense at some stage.

There had been a couple of civil wars during the reign of his father John II but they were crushed. Ferdinand himself was such a good strategist and soldier because he spend his childhood in the battlefield. After that he was a very popular king without problems at home, but granted, that was in a great part because the union with Castile and the Granada War too... Anyway, I don't see Ferdinand having real problems to keep his throne. Isabella will not invade because the frontier has been consolidated by a long lasting factic agreement to not do so between Christian kings in Iberia (look at Portugal too), and Aragon is ruled by the House of Trastamara too.

 

[LacheyS]

Tocomocho:

Thanks...I did have my Castilians and Aragonese mixed up. I had in my head that Castile has the Inquisition and that it was Isabella's enthusiasm that caused it to spread into Aragon.

I would guess that the general opinion of Jews in England would be like the rest of Europe: not well liked, in league with the Devil, restricted rights of religious practice, etc.

 

[LacheyS]

No comments ??? lol i though i had made a pretty good beginning

You did. Some of us work and sleep.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Do you guys believe that Warwick would stay loyal to Edward of Lancaster or support Edward of York if he regains his throne or would his support of Lancasters be strengthen because Edward of York and the Woodvilles hate the Neville's now? and the Year 1472 of the TL is almost ready.

 

[LacheyS]

Do you guys believe that Warwick would stay loyal to Edward of Lancaster or support Edward of York if he regains his throne or would his support of Lancasters be strengthen because Edward of York and the Woodvilles hate the Neville's now? and the Year 1472 of the TL is almost ready.

Warwick goes where Warwick gets the best deal. Have Margaret and Warwick named joint protectors of the king's person or something. However, I suspect that Edward of Lancaster may eventually want to kill his father once stability had returned to the situation, or try to seize the role from Margaret and Warwick.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

1472 JAN-MARCH

well here is the first 3 months of 1472

January 1472: Isabella prepares to make the journey to England and meet the 19-year-old Prince of Wales. She begins talks with the important nobles of Castile, making them swear on their honor that they will press her claim to the throne. In England, Edward at the urgings to Warwick and Margaret slowly assumes the responsibilities of king from his father, Henry VI. Yet the real rulers of the realm will be Warwick and Margaret for now. Edward begins to train Welsh archers in preparation for Edward the Usurper. It is while in Wales that he meets the young Henry Earl of Richmond and heir to Jasper Tudor the Earl of Pembroke, Henry would become one the young prince’s greatest friends and main Lieutenant. Rumors swirl around the court in Burgundy about the planned Franco-Anglo invasion of Burgundy. Charles Duke of Burgundy decided that having a family member on the throne of England would be very beneficial and decided to help supply Edward’s invasion.

February 1472: Henry begins to build a new college, now called Henry and Margaret College but was called the Royal College back then. Also Henry decided that England needed to be rebuilt, so he begins a massive reconstruction program in Northern England and the London area. Warwick is granted royal permission to completely rebuild Warwick castle. Prince Edward leaves Jasper and young Henry in Wales, with orders to continue training archers and spearmen. Prince Edward starts construction on a massive chain of castles in Southern England, to fortify England from invasion. In Castile all is quiet and Isabella’s wedding train is nearly finished.

March 1472: In Castile, King Enrique gets ill but is able to keep his illness a secret from Isabella and various nobles. Fearing that he is on his deathbed, he ordered Isabella to immediately travel to England and get married. He hoped he would live long enough to see Isabella out of the country so Joan his daughter could be crowned Queen instead.

 

[Kidblast]

If I'm not mistaken, there were no Jews in England at that time. They were expelled by Edward I, and I believe they did not return to England until the reign of Oliver Cromwell.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

would the Henry be a loyal friend and make a good advisor of prince edward??
Also what was the usual size of a medieval army???i need the information for when the scots invade like they always do

 

[Rakhasa]

Since there are no jews or moors available, perharps Isabel can expell the scots . No one expects the english inquisition.

Since she is more or less exiled in England she wil probably lose the civil war to steal her niece's throne -she had the help or Aragon's army in OTL, but the aragonese had a quite useful lack of ocean between Barcelona and Valladolid. This timeline Spain will probably be an union of Portugal and Castille, since I think than Joan married the Portuguese king.

But all is not lost. Columbus voyage was ludicrous, and he only got it because he persuaded Isabel -against the opinion of her husband. He had already been denied in Portugal, and his next stop if Spain said no would have been England (France was fourth), so this time England would be the first collonial power.

Well, until they rebelled to avoid paying taxes, of course.

 

[Gonzaga]

Since she is more or less exiled in England she wil probably lose the civil war to steal her niece's throne -she had the help or Aragon's army in OTL, but the aragonese had a quite useful lack of ocean between Barcelona and Valladolid. This timeline Spain will probably be an union of Portugal and Castille, since I think than Joan married the Portuguese king.

Actually the Portuguese king had already a male heir, so if Juana had given him other child the baby would only be heir of Castille, which would be ruled by a branch of the House of Aviz.
Or, as Portugal is an English ally, Juana could marry Ferdinand of Aragon ITTL in order to have support for her claim to Castille.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

I was bored so here is Part 2 of Year 1472... please comment on the battle i want to make sure i did it correctly also the next part is Edward meeting Isabella and getting married and Edward of York invading

April 1472: Edward of York’s wife Elizabeth Woodville becomes pregnant with the child due in roughly January. Edward has finished the preparations for his invasion and he planned to leave in late May or early June. Isabella has just boarded the boat that will take her to her new land and warlike husband. Henry VI has collapsed sick during his inspections of the rebuilding process in York. The Lancaster’s immediately proclaim that Edward of York’s sympathizers poisoned Henry. Warwick and Prince Edward travel north with the Lancaster army to quell any chances of rebellion. However before they reach York, a large rebellion breaks out. Also King James III of Scotland takes advantage of the unrest and invades England in the hope of gaining land.

May 1472: The battle of Middleborough takes place between Warwick and King James III. Scotland’s forces number about 12,000 and were more rested, while Warwick commanded about 9000. The Scots fell back to the town of Middleborough and gained a fortified position. Warwick deployed his men close to the Scottish during the night, which meant that the Scottish artillery, keeping up a bombardment during the night, continuously overshot the English army. Despite thick fog, Oxford's troops attacked first and, helped by their initial flanking position, made an early impact on the Scottish left under Thomas Boyd. However, this was compensated for by the foggy conditions, which made it difficult for Warwick and Prince Edward to push home their advantage. The two sides ended up shifting anticlockwise so that the battle lines were parallel to the highway rather than at right angles to it. Prince Edward himself was in the thick of the fighting in the centre. Warwick through in his reserves to help Prince Edward break the Scottish center. Edward rallied his men by shouting for the Lancaster’s and for Henry VI. Prince Edwards charge broke the morale of the Scottish and they soon fled. The English suffered 1,000 casualties while the Scottish suffered 1,500. Sadly on the very day that Henry VI became a rallying cry, he died due to complications to his illness. Isabella landed in England roughly the 28th of May. She was escorted to London where she meet her formidable mother in law. She supposedly based her rule off of lessons she learned from Margaret.

June: Prince Edward learns of the death of his father while putting down the rebellion in Yorkshire. Prince Edward moves south to be married and crowned King after the rebellion is finished. This is about the time Prince Edward mentions Earl Henry as a possible husband of Anne Neville, Warwick ponders this for roughly a week before deciding to send messages to Henry about the marriage proposal. Prince Edward takes a detour to Wales to visit his friend Earl Henry and too check on his forces stationed there, which most likely saved his life. Warwick remained in the North insuring that the rebellion didn’t restart. Isabella and Margaret travel to Wales to visit Prince Edward. While Edward of York sets sail to regain his Throne.