New World Vaccene

[history nerd]

I would like to see a world with multiple surviving Native American nations rather than european colonies. My question is what would be the ideal way to have the Native Americans be resistant to disease by the time of colonisation?

Obviously the easyest way to do this is have them contact outside cultures sooner but I am welcome to other suggestions as well.

Earlyer contacts I have considered would be Norse (easy-ish but used a lot) an asian culture (it seems the chinese are done a lot) or polonesians (more unique but im not sure that they are disease ridden enough to be the vaccene)

All imput, opinions, and trolling appretiated

 

[jkay]

One way is to have wider early American adoption of animals or birds. That way you have more native American diseases, so it's less one sided for the Europeans

My Americas' World? TL (link below, sadly stalled) and a Stinky Pig TL (search by google, not the site) both feature different approaches. My TL also reverses the contact order.

 

[Emperor Norton I]

I'd say slower and steadier contact between the New World and people from the old world, at an earlier point in time. That way the diseases would perhaps be more limited and containable, and give time for the natives to build up proper immunities. And even if there were a major plague across the continents, putting it say 500 years or more before Columbus opened the door for the European colonization would give time for the natives to build back up again, while also having succeeding generations carry immunities.

 

[Elfwine]

But how do you have something serious enough for widespread immunities, and Old World contact abruptly fading away so that the natives can restore their numbers after the plague/s have run their course?

That sounds like an almost impossibly implausible scenario.

 

[history nerd]

But how do you have something serious enough for widespread immunities, and Old World contact abruptly fading away so that the natives can restore their numbers after the plague/s have run their course?

That sounds like an almost impossibly implausible scenario.

Good point... what would yall think of a more divided europe (basically with fewer national states) and more small wars causing the europeans to not have enough infrastructure to mass colonise and have to settle for more friendly trade relations... atleas at first?

 

[Solarius]

I could imagine a scenario were, in one of China's brief period's of outside exploration, a colony could be founded on the west coast. Then a more isolationist emperor could take over. This could provide the vaccine you are looking for.

 

[corditeman]

New World Vaccine...

...Wonderful title...

But it should be ASB - or another joke of the Q :-

...Perhaps Americans could be vaccinated to make them regard themselves only as the nationality of their ethnic origin.

Nova Scotia would be a Scottish colony (hooray!)

New England an English colony (?)

New York would then be a Dutch/Irish/Polish colony.

Would Minnesota be a Swedish colony?

Texas would be Mexican (or Aztec, or Spanish)...

...I give up on California...

 

[danwild6]

Variola Minor spreading from West Africa to the America's would take care of smallpox and if a major maritime culture arises in the America's we could see more South American crops in North America and West African fruits in South America leading to greater population densities and thus more surviving natives in North America and Eastern South America similar to Mexico and Northern and Western South America.

 

[history nerd]

...Wonderful title...

But it should be ASB - or another joke of the Q :-

...Perhaps Americans could be vaccinated to make them regard themselves only as the nationality of their ethnic origin.

Nova Scotia would be a Scottish colony (hooray!)

New England an English colony (?)

New York would then be a Dutch/Irish/Polish colony.

Would Minnesota be a Swedish colony?

Texas would be Mexican (or Aztec, or Spanish)...

...I give up on California...

Im not sure you understood what I was getting at but thanks for the imput anyway I guess

 

[history nerd]

Variola Minor spreading from West Africa to the America's would take care of smallpox and if a major maritime culture arises in the America's we could see more South American crops in North America and West African fruits in South America leading to greater population densities and thus more surviving natives in North America and Eastern South America similar to Mexico and Northern and Western South America.

Interesting, how would It spred to the americas from africa?

 

[Elfwine]

Good point... what would yall think of a more divided europe (basically with fewer national states) and more small wars causing the europeans to not have enough infrastructure to mass colonise and have to settle for more friendly trade relations... atleas at first?

The problem is that you don't need national "infrastructure" to colonize. Colonists were free, except for the population loss, for states.

 

[The Ubbergeek]

If the natives had developped more advanced techs, at least like ancient greece or ancient rome, the conquistadores would have been in troubles...

Until armies of europe adopted stable gun tech, and such.

But this won time could have helped things.

 

[history nerd]

The problem is that you don't need national "infrastructure" to colonize. Colonists were free, except for the population loss, for states.

On some level though you do need infrastructure ie largy navies able to transport colonists across the atlantic as well as being able to fund exploration on a larger scale after all columbus did not finance his own voyages, in fact im pretty sure there isn't a single colony founded by individuals without the backing of a properous state.

 

[Marja]

On some level though you do need infrastructure ie largy navies able to transport colonists across the atlantic as well as being able to fund exploration on a larger scale after all columbus did not finance his own voyages, in fact im pretty sure there isn't a single colony founded by individuals without the backing of a properous state.

Perhaps Iceland? And can we count England as one?

 

[Elfwine]

On some level though you do need infrastructure ie largy navies able to transport colonists across the atlantic as well as being able to fund exploration on a larger scale after all columbus did not finance his own voyages, in fact im pretty sure there isn't a single colony founded by individuals without the backing of a properous state.

Colonists paid their own way across the Atlantic. They weren't sent like this was EU2 or something.

As for funding exploration: Sure, but the amount you need there is relatively minimal - at worst, the crown can buy/lease/seize a few ships.

 

[history nerd]

Colonists paid their own way across the Atlantic. They weren't sent like this was EU2 or something.

As for funding exploration: Sure, but the amount you need there is relatively minimal - at worst, the crown can buy/lease/seize a few ships.

... yeah they paid their own way but you need a larger state to support the initial exploration efforts as well as military in order to keep the natives from simply killing of the scurvy ridden colonists. I think you are underestimating the importance of the state in colonization, thats one of the reasons vinland never became anything. One needs to keep in mind that this is the 1500s and europe isn't running on a 21st century free market model, nothing happens without support of the state to some degree.

 

[history nerd]

In other words I don't think Castille could colinize the way spain could or that england (minus wales and scotland etc) could colonise the way it did OTL especially if engaged in major wars at home...

 

[Elfwine]

... yeah they paid their own way but you need a larger state to support the initial exploration efforts as well as military in order to keep the natives from simply killing of the scurvy ridden colonists. I think you are underestimating the importance of the state in colonization, thats one of the reasons vinland never became anything. One needs to keep in mind that this is the 1500s and europe isn't running on a 21st century free market model, nothing happens without support of the state to some degree.

Nothing happens except for just about everything, because "the state" is barely developed as an idea, let alone a reality. "The King" is not quite the same thing.

And the scurvy ridden colonists being killed off...how long did it take for any (state) military presence to show up in Virginia? Or Massachusetts?

Vinland never became anything not because a lack of "state" backing but because of a lack of Norsemen involved.

And England minus Wales or even minus Scotland is still pretty potent compared to the natives.

 

[history nerd]

Nothing happens except for just about everything, because "the state" is barely developed as an idea, let alone a reality. "The King" is not quite the same thing.

And the scurvy ridden colonists being killed off...how long did it take for any (state) military presence to show up in Virginia? Or Massachusetts?

Vinland never became anything not because a lack of "state" backing but because of a lack of Norsemen involved.

And England minus Wales or even minus Scotland is still pretty potent compared to the natives.

Using the northern part of the new world as an example is not really relivant. The colonization in central and south america was the initial point of contact and was military from the word "go".... Virginia didn't exist for another century by which time the native populations were already being devistated by epidemics, it is a poor counter example.

Also the first time the english showed up in the new world they died pretty damn quick... Roanoke anyone? IT wasn't until James I chartered the virginia company that things began to kick off over here.

I would argue that state stability is directly tied to the number of people finincially stable enough to afford colonization and that national states contribute to the creation of minoraties that feel neglected and are willing to emmigrate after all we don't see a large exodus of germans until after german national unification.

 

[Elfwine]

Using the northern part of the new world as an example is not really relivant. The colonization in central and south america was the initial point of contact and was military from the word "go".... Virginia didn't exist for another century by which time the native populations were already being devistated by epidemics, it is a poor counter example.

Relevant for purposes of settlers landing and (not) being killed off.

As for central and south America: Cortez and such were practically on the pirate side of privateer. An ambitious jarl's expedition would look similar.

Also the first time the english showed up in the new world they died pretty damn quick... Roanoke anyone? IT wasn't until James I chartered the virginia company that things began to kick off over here.

And what exactly did the state do for the Virginia company?

I would argue that state stability is directly tied to the number of people finincially stable enough to afford colonization and that national states contribute to the creation of minoraties that feel neglected and are willing to emmigrate after all we don't see a large exodus of germans until after german national unification.

There was a goodly number after '48.

I think you're overestimating "state" involvement, as in the state as special and different than something those with money and mercenaries could do.