Prolonging the Futility: A WW2 European TL

[pattersonautobody]

Just as a FYI, people voted to see a Germany win, the next is a Germany loses.

 

[pattersonautobody]

While Germany had a long string of firsts, such as the first satellite into space and first spacewalk, their military industrial complex was considerably backward in computation. The Soviets and United States likewise pursued “peaceful” space programs, which were covers for developing technology to produce ICBMs.

Italian colonialism was somewhat more successful in Africa than the French, who were overstretched in South East Asia and had to grant independence to their African colonies one after another so resources can be invested in Vietnam. Ethiopia did gain its independence, however, though Eritrea (which did not successfully break off during the Ethiopian independence wars in the 1960s) remains in Italian hands to this day.

Even after years of economic expansion, the Republicans lost the 1964 election and the moderate Democrat John F Kennedy was elected United States’ President. He pursued civil rights and a modest expansion of the military, but he was hamstrung as there was little support for deficit spending, immigration reform, or removing the tariff (which unions supported vociferously).

The Soviet Union increased its trade with western Europe and even became a destination for German industry, due to its cheaper labor costs. While the border between Lithuania and East Prussia was the most defended area on Earth (a policy which was pursued in the 1940s and 50s), Germans generally began to take a more progressive view of the Soviets themselves, especially due to Malenkov’s frequent visits to the county to elicit positive public relations. Germany acquired most of its grain, oil, and a considerable amount of weaponry as well as other minor manufactured goods from the Soviet Union.

Germany exhausted themselves with building up their military-industrial complex and supporting anti-colonial proxy wars throughout the world, mainly by selling (or giving) weapons to these powers. Germany avoided doing this in Latin America, due to the ire of the United States which dominated this area. The average German had a better standard of living than the average Greek, but that was not saying much. Northern Italians, for example, had a much higher GDP-per-capita and in order to attract southern Italian labor to Germany’s cities, a considerable social safety net had to be provided.

Unlike Germany (with its small amount of space, high labor costs, and convoluted approach to engineering) and the United States (which still had a rather small military for an international power), the Soviet Union started making significant strides in rocket research (particularly in boosters) as well as medical research. This was thanks to the Soviet approach to science culturally being considerably more ruthless. For example, medical doctors would inject themselves with new medicines as the initial human test subjects—something that encouraged getting their work right the first time. Additionally, with a lot of “space” to conduct tests, but minimum infrastructure, the Soviets often had to do more with less, allowing rockets to explode during live tests and then figuring out what went wrong, instead of using dynos and such. This permitted the Soviets to catch up considerably with the Germans, and were in fact ahead of the Americans. This was a deadly but highly efficient way to conduct technical research. By the 1970s, the Soviets were producing far better rocket boosters than the Americans and Germans, and this disparity only increased subsequently.

Most Americans viewed Kennedy very favorably and he was keen upon not rocking the boat. He was more concerned with winning re-election. He generally stayed out of foreign entanglements and he was President until 1972. Succeeding him was Robert F Kennedy, who pursued an identical approach, earning the nickname “Kennedy’s Third Term.” The American economy mostly stagnated due it being largely closed off to international markets due to the tarriff and German/Soviet/Korean competition. However, Americans enjoyed a good standard of living (the best in the world) and the minimalist approach of two decades of Federal austerity had eliminated war debts, which were rather high. A divide between “far left” (relatively) states and other states began. Some states, even with Republican governors like New York, started to introduced social programs, such as social security (which was repealed under Taft) and health care for the elderly.

Between the Korean Empire and Japan there were considerable similarities. Both powers massively industrialized and quickly. Both pursued “window guidance” central banking and their economies soared in an organized manner. Their television and movies were mostly the same and the Japanization policies in the Korean Empire were creating a new generation which was entirely fluent in Japanese and they preferred their popular culture in this language (people still spoke Korean, Cantonese, and Mandarin at home). Translated Japanese movies and animation started to become popular in the Soviet Union. Japanese became the “lingua Franca” of east Asia for business and if it were not for this, the policy would probably have been rejected as the Japanese minority very quickly lost their complete hegemony in the 1960s. Positions of power were increasingly attained by educated Koreans and Chinese, though there continued to be an influx of immigration from Japan itself due to their economic resurgence being less robust than Korea's.

The Orthodox Church had a considerable resurgence in the Soviet Union, as Malenkov came out of the closet as a reader of a local Moscow Parish, and supported “reparations” to the Church. This meant rebuilding the monasteries and temples destroyed by the Leninist and Stalinist persecutions. Though Malenkov was energetic in this regard, the Soviet Union still had less parishes (when was does not include annexed Manchuria) by the time of his death in 1988 than in 1918. Cultural knock on effects within Russia were large, as abortion remained illegal and high birth rates were encouraged. Due to the new NEP program, the increased urbanization program of OTL was curtailed and the USSR maintained a strong, agricultural and rural populace which remained in their ancestral lands as they had actually profited off of doing so in many cases more than working in a far away factory.

Serious evangelistic work began in Soviet Manchuria and the Korean Empire since the late 1950s. Without support from American Presbyterians as per OTL, the Orthodox Church stepped in. For most average Koreans, who already believed in a supreme God and without a strong push to impose Shintoism since the death of the Emperor in 1945, they saw Orthodoxy as something that was distinctly Korean, yet anti-Japanese. Plus, the Orthodox were the ones building wells, schools, and hospitals. Additionally, the Japanese ruling class saw the Orthodox Church as a pliable institution that supported the state, and encouraged its growth. The new wave of Japanese and Japanized leaders, who went to Leningrad and Moscow for their educations, went back to Korea, Taiwan, and some parts of mainland China supporting the Church, being converts themselves. On top of all the preceding, the positive foreign presence of Orthodox evangelism coincided with increasing economic fortunes, which average people saw as a result of Soviet alignment, creating an overall positive view (and Orthodox Christian religion) as a whole. The resurgence was seen as God's blessing.

The communal culture of Korea lent itself to the creating of large cathedrals. In Yoido, construction began of the world’s largest cathedral. It fit nearly 30,000 people standing and was the Cathedral of the Metropolitan of Seoul and All of Asia. It was built larger than the Hagia Sophia and was considered one of the wonders of the world.

Most of the well to do in the Korean Empire sent their children to be educated in the Soviet Union, which made Russian a popular third language. Russian even became the second language of the Korean on the home islands through “Korean Empire” mass media. It was the “cool” language of the east-Asian youth (who would use Russian slang, use Russian characters, and etcetera). While Christianity did not take off in Japan, Orthodoxy did grow significantly. This was because it never Americanized greatly (the Americans being viewed as occupiers and puppet masters, while the Korean-Japanese were “free.”) In 1969, the Moscow Patriarchate granted “autocephaly” to Russian Greek Catholic Orthodox Church, which became know as the OCA in exchange for jurisdiction on the home islands.

In the meantime, the Greeks (including “Constantinople”), Poles, Western Ukrainians, and Albanian Orthodox, (other than some non-commemorators all around) due to Italian pressure (with German approval) went into union with the Roman Catholic Church as Uniates. The Council of Vatican III disowned the Pope’s universal jurisdiction (teaching that Papal teachings in this regard pertained strictly to the West, which was seen as Rome’s “local jurisdiction”), required Orthodox submission to the dogmas of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary, and reaffirmed Canon 2 of the Council of Constantinople “V” (the council from 879-880) which removed the Filioque from the Creed. The teaching of the doctrine was not disowned in the West, though as the decades wore on it became popular among intellectuals to understand the Council of Florence, Vatican I, and such as “local councils” as not authoritatively binding.

This caused a schism within the Orthodox world, which would create a new canonical order in 1973 in the “Council of Jerusalem.” Though perceived as an “ecumenical council” (though it was not billed as such) it was attended by the remainder of the Orthodox world, including certain German-Italo sphere nations including Yugoslavia (i.e. the Serbian Church), Bulgaria, and Romania (which is much smaller of a nation ITTL but its religious “canonical boundaries” are roughly the same, with the exception of parts that were part of Western Ukraine and forcefully converted to Uniatism). This council recognized the autocephaly of the United States (and elevated their Metropolitan to that of Patriarch), and created an official canonical order which held Old Rome and New Rome in their places of prominence (noting that they regain their position when they re-enter communion), but also specifically created an “order” for the other Autocephalys churches. Moscow was given the sixth in the order of the Hexarchy, while the remaining Orthodox churches were given the seventh seat “equally” and given the canonical responsibility to appeal to each others synods before elevating appeals to Moscow, or further up the chain all the way to “a Pan-Orthodox Synod.” It was implied a true ecumenical council required both Rome and Constantinople’s attendance in order to bear the name.

Outside of the West, the church situations made people more cognizant of the role of religion. Manchuria, now under Soviet occupation for 20 years, had a Japanese popular culture, but a Russian intellectual culture. This would only grow in time as the “republic” became increasingly more Soviet as time went on. Today, Manchuria’s 120 million people are roughly 50 percent Orthodox, making them the world’s third largest Orthodox “country” (though it is a republic within the USSR). The Korean Empire, which includes Xiamen, Taiwan, and Shandung (only half of it is part of the Korean Empire), has a population of 250 million people, itself also being approximately 50 percent Orthodox—making it the world’s second largest Orthodox country behind the Russian Republic. China itself never legalized Orthodoxy and so the religion did not make inroads amongst its one billion people. Additionally, it should be noted that only about 10 percent of the populations are devout and actually attend services with any frequency.

As stated previously, by the close of the 1960s, the world’ highest living standards were far away in the USA, but a certain malaise had taken over its people. Immigration was never re-opened up, it’s export economy was solid but not aggressive due to its tariff policy (Central Europe and the Soviets more aggressively pursued trade), and it was considerably paranoid of Cuba, Mexico, or South American nations becoming overly sympathetic to Germany. A massive distrust of the Soviets never set in. Not getting involved in hands-on foreign adventures was an overall gain, but years of balanced budgets meant slow but steady economic growth, and moderate old-right policies were continued by the “Kennedy Dynasty.” Both the Republican and Democratic parties would liberalize socially in a considerable matter, as did the Anglo and Francospheres, but the Americans maintained economic conservatism while western Europe became considerably more socialist. A declining birth rate, due to increase urbanization, abortion, and the invention of birth control, set in.

The western European empires were falling apart by the late 1960s, not from want of brutality, and the wholesale abandonment of their colonies generally thrust their former subjects into the Central European sphere of orbit, as they were more keen on giving away weapons and material support in order to gather influence. This included South East Asia, but not China, which was “Finlandized.”

The Soviets, with the Korean Empire and Inner and Outer Mongolia within their sphere, already had hundreds of millions of people to worry about on their own and so they were not concerned with gaining fluence in former British and French colonies. However, the breadth of the second world permitted a large degree of autarky, though German goods were prized by their service sector.

 

[Amon34]

so the koreans are orthodox the colonial empires are still collapsing but they are close to their former masters and the germans get along with everyone, it's an interesting world

 

[caelum]

Just as a FYI, people voted to see a Germany win, the next is a Germany loses.

There is victory and "victory".
They maybe won their "rights" to exist by bleeding the allies too much but it doesn't necessary mean prosperity and respect that they lost by the end of the war.

This Germany wins is far too much ASB and you do forget a lot of critical events that would shape this world differently than OTL. The Germans should have at least 10 millions dead with as much wounded from a population 69 milions.

The infrastructure after devastation of the Axis can't be rebuilt that easily especially with the destruction of section logistical lines and the difficulty to obtain strategic raw material. One example of the consequence oflack of raw material is the developpment of the Heinkel He 162 a mostly wooden jet fighter due to the lack of metal. These ressources would have to be shared by the military and the civilians.

I can accept the initiation a of german atomic bomb as long as it mostly uses the captured materials of the american ones. However, producing them is a costly both in ressources and energy endeavour. They have to build an industry from nothing and OTL, it took the french 15 years to go from no infrastructure (just the minds of very proeminent of project Manhattan scientist) to a first test in 1960 and ITTL, both the french and the british will have them by 1960 and aimed to Germany. They maybe have a small stockpile but no production line in the foreseable future with maybe a first test of a home made well into the 1960s if not 1970s and it will be too late for them. It would be stupid for Germany to arms rebellions rebellions within the colonial empire of France and Great Britain when they have WMD directed at them, especially France with her "Force de Frappe".
The nuclear weapons not being a victory weapon would mean an easier escalation to a nuclear war and far less restriction to unleash it.

In between, you have the development of missiles and ICBM that happens OTL during that time period and there is a limit of how much ressources Germany can use. Whatever success they have in rocketry and early space exploration should be smoke screen for both the population and the world, hiding the hardship of reconstruction.

Concerning the decolonisation, most of it should happen like OTL with potentially a few butterflies and by 1960 most of Africa was decolonised mostly through diplomatic means. The empires were still able to tied them within there sphere of influence. The French-Indochina war for example is potentially butterflied away if you remove a few actors on the table. The negociation were well underway but because the personal interest of one french general, that war happened. However, repressions and even massacres would still happens like it happened in OTL.

At last, I have hard time to believe that Germany and the USSR would become such buddies so early especially when Germany caused the death of around 25 millions of your people, more than half being civilians, after breaking a non-agression treaty.

​

 

[skarosianlifeform]

I'm not sure France would have overly prioritized keeping Indochina over French West Africa, or French Equatorial Africa, or Madagascar, or Tunisia and Morocco.
(And I'm sure that France would NOT have prioritized Indochina over Algeria, which was considered an integral part of France, and hosted hundreds of thousands of French colonists who considered it "their home").

 

[pattersonautobody]

@caleum, how does 6 million dollars in Marshal Plan funding and the lack of German prospect to sell weapons IOTL in the 1940s help Germany more than foregoing 23 billion in material reparations and the ability to sell weapons, which by 1945 IOTL was what most of German industry was geared for at that point?

 

[caelum]

@caleum, how does 6 million dollars in Marshal Plan funding and the lack of German prospect to sell weapons IOTL in the 1940s help Germany more than foregoing 23 billion in material reparations and the ability to sell weapons, which by 1945 IOTL was what most of German industry was geared for at that point?

The Marshall plan toward Germany was 1.4 billions dollars of loans (14.5 billions in 2021) not just 6 millions and this is without counting the aid given to millions of German refugies that is in the billions.

The state of Germany should be worse than OTL (industry below 50% and agriculture at 35% of pre war level). A longer war means an even lower number and so a even longer reconstruction to reach these level and that can't happens without foreign workers. It took nearly five years to reach these for OTL and it took around 30 years to remove most of the stigmates of the war.

The 1945 OTL Germany may have its industry geared toward full military production but it does run on a logistical tail that for all purpose and intent was cut down by 1945. The drawings and plans of the most wondrous weapons are useless if you don't have the raw materials in both sufficient and good quality for the manufacturing, can't transport them to the factories and send the final product to where they are needed.

Reparations aren't instaneous, the logistic lanes are mostly reduced to dust, a sizable part of your potential workforce is gone. And all of the above are needed in some capacity in order to rebuild a country. Licensing the production is their only option in an immediate post war situation and their customer mostly reduced to a smaller circle of neutral nations or axis-alligned ones. And you will have the other countries that will do their best to undermine these commercial operations by trying to sell their own weapons to the potential customers.

The Germans had some of most cutting edge weapons by the end of the war and they lost because they couldn't replace their losses both in trained personnel and barely replacable equipements.

 

[Issei Uzumaki]

Losses from Operation Downfall were equivalent to the numbers that were estimated. About a quarter million casualties were suffered and experts believed that the Japanese home islands themselves would hold off until at least the summer, with probably another million casualties. After the defeat in France, plus the large amount of casualties in both Europe and Japan, it was hard to sell to the public that defeating the Axis was some matter of existential importance. With Democrats fearing a Republican landslide 1946, Truman was pushed to start making peace. Little did they know that if they literally sat and waited, Japan and Germany would starve by the summer.

The decision was made to drop an atomic bomb a month (which is roughly the rate they were produced) on Japan’s port cities in order to prevent food from reaching the home islands from Korea, Manchuko, and mainland China. Some sort of peace would be made with the Germans and Italians.

The peace posed to Italy was that Sardinia and Sicily would be returned in exchange for an independent Yugoslavia (though Italy would retain their direct occupation zones in these lands). Italy would be returned their African colonies, but they would have to allow for an independent Greece and Dodecanese. French acquisitions would have to be surrendered and trivial reparations paid to them. Essentially, Italy lost hundreds of thousands of men and billions of lire for some trivial acquisitions in the Balkans. Mussolini, seeing this as an allowance of Italy to sit at the table in the post-world order accepted the deal. By Christmas, Italy was out of the war.

Germany was offered another Versailles deal, something the conservatives in the military refused even at this late a date. A sort of insanity had taken over German thinking. The kinks would be worked out of their electric U-Boats. The newest ME-262 was actually reliable and would turn the tide in the skies. The relentless bombing campaigns were already decreasing thanks to the Wasserfall and new anti-aircraft shells (though B17s and B29s with jamming devices were beginning to hamper the Germans). V1-F2s would drop higher chemical payloads. The TA-183 would be unmatched in the skies. Romanian oil imports and synthetic fuel facilities in Silesia were increasing and would improve the agricultural as well as the military situation. The Allies did not have the heart to fight the quagmire in Japan for long.

New developments emboldened the Germans. In a sudden, unanticipated move, the Soviets unleashed an offensive not into Germany or Poland, but against Manchuria. The Soviets had amassed 1.2 million men. Manchuko had about 700,000 defenders. It was the winter and progress was slow, but steady. By March, Soviet forces have reached Korea and Japanese resistance was weak. The Soviets experienced about 100,000 casualties, the Japanese about twice as much, as they withdrew under the onslaught to Korea.

Many in the West were shocked by this dastardly move and wanted to cut off lend lease entirely. However, if this were done, chances were the Soviets would never cede Manchuria to China. So, the threat was made that this would be done. Stalin called off plans, that were never serious, to invade Korea. Lend lease continued to Russia.

With Italy leaving the war, Germany was able to begin importing more through Italy, who was returned their merchant marine. Germany had largely ran out of capital, and so they licensed advanced weapons technology to Italy including proximity fuses for antiaircraft guns, the ME-262, and the Tiger tanks. These weapons were chosen specifically because of both their advanced nature but also defensive utility. They would have little offensive value through the Alps. The Germans were aware that Italy would likewise sell intact versions of all of these to the Allies, but this made little difference as they had already captured all of these.

Through Italian imports, Germany barely avoided complete and utter starvation. The average German lived under a constant barrage of chemical warfare and they were running out of unskilled slave labor to starve to death (as the skilled labor was barely at subsistence level). In retrospect, if the Allies had not dropped atomic weapons, terror bombed Germany, and gassed its people, starvation would have forced a peace as it had in WW1. However, due to the justified feeling that the Wallies were intent from erasing them from existence, the average German was determined to fight on. It was that or the death of everyone they held dear.

Why on earth would Stalin invade Manchuko? He was pretty adamant OTL about only helping with Japan AFTER German surrender. This isnt rolling sixes, its cheating with a D20 dice.

 

[lukedalton]

The Germans had some of most cutting edge weapons by the end of the war and they lost because they couldn't replace their losses both in trained personnel and barely replacable equipements.

Plus such cutting edge weapons were heavy maintenance, costly and needed pretty costly material...not your average material for South American nation (more or less the only client left) and the rest of the world will have other priorities than buying weapons as their entire nation are in big need to rebuild

 

[Issei Uzumaki]

So finally caught up and finished. Have to say, it was an interesting read and props for the story, however, there is simply too much ASB in this and should be moved to that forum. Nothing wrong with ASB stories mind you, its just even despite your stated intention at the start to make it believable the final straw for me was the quick surrender of 200K in this TL version of Battle of the Bulge, simply not realistic on such a quick surrender. And as I mentioned in a prior post, Stalin was hyper focused on beating Germany, he would not have come into Manchuria without securing the defeat of the Nazis.

 

[pattersonautobody]

Why on earth would Stalin invade Manchuko? He was pretty adamant OTL about only helping with Japan AFTER German surrender. This isnt rolling sixes, its cheating with a D20 dice.

ITTL, Stalin cannot gain a ton of concessions in eastern Europe because ukraine and the balkans do not fall into his hands. And so, Romania and Bulgaria don't switch sides. As a result, the USSR does not have the manpower to get the concessions they need in eastern Europe nor to the Wallies guarentee these. And so, the USSR takes something simply so they can get it.

 

[pattersonautobody]

"West Berlin, Germany. Marshall Plan aid to Germany totaled $1,390,600 and enabled that country to rise from the ashes of defeat, as symbolized by this worker in West Berlin..." https://www.archives.gov/historical...totaled $1,390,600 and enabled that,1948 - ca.​

Not that Wiki is the best source (it estimates closer to 1.5 billion in aid), but it also speaks of the German economy being hamstrung, limited in its steel production by 25 percent for a few years, then increased to fifty percent. Additionally, most of the 1.5 billion was in loans, the 1.4 million was the "free" money Germany was given.

In any event, all of this is less than 23 billion in reparations and the capability to produce and sell at full capacity right after the peace. As for those complaining about the US surrender during that Battle of the Bulge, Patton does not break through the the Allies do not have a sufficient airfield to bring in enough supplies to feed 200K men.

 

[Issei Uzumaki]

ITTL, Stalin cannot gain a ton of concessions in eastern Europe because ukraine and the balkans do not fall into his hands. And so, Romania and Bulgaria don't switch sides. As a result, the USSR does not have the manpower to get the concessions they need in eastern Europe nor to the Wallies guarentee these. And so, the USSR takes something simply so they can get it.

That still overlooks his and all Soviets desire for revenge against the Germans. They were the main enemy, the Japanese were just a nuisance.

 

[ferdi254]

The catholic and greek churches were at anathema until 1992 . Them getting together in thec60s? Mindboggling.

 

[lukedalton]

Not that Wiki is the best source (it estimates closer to 1.5 billion in aid), but it also speaks of the German economy being hamstrung, limited in its steel production by 25 percent for a few years, then increased to fifty percent. Additionally, most of the 1.5 billion was in loans, the 1.4 million was the "free" money Germany was given.

In any event, all of this is less than 23 billion in reparations and the capability to produce and sell at full capacity right after the peace. As for those complaining about the US surrender during that Battle of the Bulge, Patton does not break through the the Allies do not have a sufficient airfield to bring in enough supplies to feed 200K men.

the 23 billion were payed in decades while the Marshall plan was an immediate shoot to the economy; much of the reparations where in machine and industry and a lot of them were already destroyed ITTL and while the Allies can't feed 200K men...neither the nazi can.

 

[caelum]

Not that Wiki is the best source (it estimates closer to 1.5 billion in aid), but it also speaks of the German economy being hamstrung, limited in its steel production by 25 percent for a few years, then increased to fifty percent. Additionally, most of the 1.5 billion was in loans, the 1.4 million was the "free" money Germany was given.

In any event, all of this is less than 23 billion in reparations and the capability to produce and sell at full capacity right after the peace. As for those complaining about the US surrender during that Battle of the Bulge, Patton does not break through the the Allies do not have a sufficient airfield to bring in enough supplies to feed 200K men.

Here is a non Wikipedia source for the 1.4 billions Marshall plan for Germany.

With the amount of destruction and even with the 23 billions, it won't translate instantaneously into reconstruction, food, machinery and finished items. The people will want food in their belly and a roof above their head. Ressources for full weapons production will be diverted toward reconstruction no matter what because you need to rebuild cities worth of houses alongside the transport link and annemities to have them functionnal, and you need people that is now a scarce ressource in Germany. And frankly, with all the devastations happened they can't have pre war level of weapon production. Decentralisation of production sites affect manufacturing cost with the need of transport for parts, finished products and weapons developpment and it is hard when the logistical train had been shot to oblivion. They sacrificed efficiency for the survivability sake. And I won't be surprised if Germany will be forced to buy overpriced products with this reconstruction fund and part of it wasted because of inefficiency.

The ability to design big items and/or advanced one, especially planes need entire teams of engineers and scientists (limited supply for both) if dispersed means time and energy to transfer data. Germany can only have an headstart that won't last long against the scientific machine and their near infinite production capabilities of the US and her allies. All the ineficiencies in design, logistics and production means a lower abilities to mass produce, ergo a higher price tag to the point it will be easy for the other countries to reproduce and sell at a lower price at least as good equivalents.

Despite the decolonisation, OTL, the European powers enjoyed 30 years of great economical growth, that would still affect in Germany ITTL but at a far less level.

And in your timeline, you should have the power invaded by Germany and then freed armed themselves to the point a tentative of invasion is suicide at country level, with probably with a politic akin the french Force de Frappe spread to multiple contries outside of France. Somehow most of the world forgot that Germany is both the Agressor and the Backstabber.

 

[pattersonautobody]

the 23 billion were payed in decades while the Marshall plan was an immediate shoot to the economy; much of the reparations where in machine and industry and a lot of them were already destroyed ITTL and while the Allies can't feed 200K men...neither the nazi can.

the ability to do 100 percent of your steel production, let alone sell weaponry (which was most German industry in 1945 IOTL) is more than 1.4 billion dollars in 1948-50.

 

[pattersonautobody]

The catholic and greek churches were at anathema until 1992 . Them getting together in thec60s? Mindboggling.

actually, Constantinople lifted their anathema before Vatican II (Patriarch Athenagoras actually claimed not to be in schism, but he was a nut). ITTL, the Facist bloc simply bullies the churches at their disposal (which happened IOTL, just like the forced conversion of Uniates to Orthodoxy in Ukraine in the 1940s). Constantinople IOTL, if invited to, would have went into union with Rome because this is what Athenagoras actually wanted. To push a fascist-puppeted Greece, and Grecophile Alexandria to do the same is not actually difficult. The rest of the Orthodox Churches will not, which is why they do not ITTL.

 

[lukedalton]

the ability to do 100 percent of your steel production, let alone sell weaponry (which was most German industry in 1945 IOTL) is more than 1.4 billion dollars in 1948-50.

Honestly, you still need to answer the question...who buy their weapon? Who has the money? Who is this incredible long list of nation that want only buy in enormous quantity the German weapons. All your steel and machinery will be used to buy food from the rest of Europe...if they want to sell it and frankly they can make the price; not considering that the most industrializated zone has been subjected to an year more of air bombardment (not considering the allied offensive) and the number of specializated workers aka people not used as slave labor will be much much less due to the war, pestilence and famine.

actually, Constantinople lifted their anathema before Vatican II (Patriarch Athenagoras actually claimed not to be in schism, but he was a nut). ITTL, the Facist bloc simply bullies the churches at their disposal (which happened IOTL, just like the forced conversion of Uniates to Orthodoxy in Ukraine in the 1940s). Constantinople IOTL, if invited to, would have went into union with Rome because this is what Athenagoras actually wanted. To push a fascist-puppeted Greece, and Grecophile Alexandria to do the same is not actually difficult. The rest of the Orthodox Churches will not, which is why they do not ITTL.

What fascist block, all the former allies of Germany will throw themself to the americans for money for reconstructionor they will be engulfed in civil war; nation like Greece will see any puppet goverment lasting three second once the occupiers are gone. Italy keeping four million of men in the army it's beyond absurd, the 3 million of OTL 1943 had a lot of consequence in production both industrial and agricolture and frankly after so much bloodshed people will want go home and any regime in power will demobilize or another will be found. Occupy what occupied in OTL will be a strech for the tired and poor Italy (and frankly beyond stupidity for the allies as you have left Italy commerce with the German, really please tone donwn their lack of intelligence or desperation, because the Italians will be much much more desperate and the Hungarian even more), they will return home simply

 

[pattersonautobody]

No offense, but I answered questions in the TL so I am not going to go tit for tat. Already addressed most Italians being reservists...and that the USSR, Italy, and Israel bought weapons from Germany. Don't like the answers, sorry.