Sequel de Mayo (Cinco de Mayo, Vol. II)
- Thread starter KingSweden24
- Start date
I bet the first shot will be either Nathan the Third NRO assasinating an American General or the hillboys attacking a makeshift military camp somewhere in the occupied areas
This was the OTL Democratic line against abolition peddled to the Northern working class - they asserted that big businesses, owned by Protestant moralists, wanted to use abolition to flood the cities with recently-freed blacks who would work for pennies, drive industrial wages down, replace Irish immigrants and close the doors to newcomers, re-engineer election demographics, and move against Catholicism. This led to the draft riots, as well as New York's mayor briefly leading a movement to secede in 1861.
Sadly, a lot of high-profile white abolitionists were Protestant moralist business owners who hated Catholics and immigration.
On the other hand, Southern Democrats also separately argued to Northern finance that abolition was designed to spur labour unrest and class war and to disrupt capitalism.
The slave power's world-historic levels of bad faith should surprise nobody.
Like clockwork or the rising of the sun
A decent analogyThis is what I am thinking of.
La Violencia - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
The La Violencia conflict took place between the Military Forces of Colombia and the National Police of Colombia supported by Colombian Conservative Party paramilitary groups on one side, and paramilitary and guerrilla groups aligned with the Colombian Liberal Party and the Colombian Communist Party on the other side.
Sounds about right.
And the bolded, to be fair, does describe men like Henry Cabot Lodge to a T
Does it really, though?
Power in the pre OTL-1905 model Grand Duchy was in the hands of the Governor-General and Ministerstatssekreterare/Ministerivaltiosihteeri.
The State Secretary, who presented the administrative questions and legislation of the Grand Duchy directly to the Czar and the Governor-General had the final say in the administrative matters. Even if the early role of the Grand Duchy as a administrative "test area" for reforms in rest of Russia continues, it is highly unlikely that the reforms would go as far as they did in OTL after the General Strike: https://www.aanioikeus.fi/en/publications/strike/
Mmmm I guess I didn't realize how much the Senate of Finland was dependent on 1905 being a thing, then
I'm reminded of the Wisconsin Draft Riots during the Civil War where the rioters - almost all of them Belgian immigrants - targeted draft officials as well as the homes of local GOP bigwigs. They knew exactly who they were going after and why: most American Catholics in the 1860s were fundamentally aware of the strange phenomenom where Abolitionist Rioters in the 1850s had always seemed to make a point of segwaying into Catholic neighborhoods and burning homes and churches (indeed, many abolitionist leaders had drawn a very close association between Southern slavery and the "slavery" of Catholics to Rome. Of course, the rioters tried to 'liberate' the poor benighted Catholics by burning their homes, shops and places of worship - which is a rather interesting way to go about it, and a stratey which won them few friends amongst the Catholic immigrant population for some reason ... )
And, to join a trend: if we're assuming that only the most dramatic of butterflies impacts births in the Cinqo-verse, then I would be likely to be born in the ATL. My Mother's family were Polish-American farmers and pretty settled into their community by the 1860s or so, and my Da's family had been in Wisconsin since before the Civil War (there is, apparently, a display at the Gettysburg museum detailing the life of a a Henry McCollum who was - apparently - my GGG-Uncle and died in his uncle's arms at the battle). Leaving aside that, without WW2, my paternal grandmother's family might not move from Minnesota to southern Wisconsin, or at that some paternal ancestor may have died in the GAW, there's no reason to assume that my Da wouldn't have somehow met my Mother. So there is an alternate-me, who is probably very happily living in the Alt-US, an even stronger Dem than his OTL counterpart.
Since we're on the subject...
My dad's grandparents came over in the late 1900s/early 1910s from Greece (the Peloponnese - so still part of Greece ITTL) to Chicago. Odds are in the Cincoverse they still make the trip, if for no other reason than to get a nice factory job during the GAW. It is when you get to my mom's side of the family (also from the Peloponnese) that you have troubles - my mom's parents emigrated right after WWII during the Greek Civil War. Both WWII and the Greek Civil War are likely butterflied away entirely, so that push factor likely won't be there. However, both my maternal grandparents came from a pretty poor background in Greece (my grandfather was a shepherd and one of nine kids) so maybe they make the trip after all? Also, my maternal grandmother emigrated to El Paso of all places in the late 1940s and lived there for a few years before coming to Chicago and meeting my grandfather, so there's a decent chance the Curtain Jerker of the Cincoverse is Texan since she might just decide to stay in El Paso rather than trying to come to the USA.
My dad's grandparents came over in the late 1900s/early 1910s from Greece (the Peloponnese - so still part of Greece ITTL) to Chicago. Odds are in the Cincoverse they still make the trip, if for no other reason than to get a nice factory job during the GAW. It is when you get to my mom's side of the family (also from the Peloponnese) that you have troubles - my mom's parents emigrated right after WWII during the Greek Civil War. Both WWII and the Greek Civil War are likely butterflied away entirely, so that push factor likely won't be there. However, both my maternal grandparents came from a pretty poor background in Greece (my grandfather was a shepherd and one of nine kids) so maybe they make the trip after all? Also, my maternal grandmother emigrated to El Paso of all places in the late 1940s and lived there for a few years before coming to Chicago and meeting my grandfather, so there's a decent chance the Curtain Jerker of the Cincoverse is Texan since she might just decide to stay in El Paso rather than trying to come to the USA.
Minneapolis General Strike (Part III)
"...laws from the Hearst years that had limited the ability of the federal government to seek injunctions against strikers, and Pierce Butler, right-wing as he may have been, advised as he stepped aside from consideration for the Supreme Court that provoking the strikers as such was a poor decision. Van Devanter went ahead anyways, egged on by Mellon.
There is a great deal of scholarship, particularly common in the 1970s and early 1980s, that sought to absolve many of Root's mistakes by shifting blame for them on overzealous Cabinet officials such as Van Devanter or ideologically rigid minds like Mellon (even as an effort to rehabilitate Mellon was underway by then, too). The Minneapolis General Strike seems like a clear case in which one would normally assume the minority view of Root as a well-meaning old man misled by his underlings would win out, but enough evidence exists that President Root not only agreed to Van Devanter's injunction but approved wholeheartedly of it, as can be seen in his response to Stimson's qualified opposition to using the Minnesota National Guard to crush the strike. "There are too many men sitting idle," Root wrote testily as Stimson suggested letting things play out in federal court, "and too many idle men make for combustible times." With violence escalating rapidly across the occupied Confederacy in early July as the Red Summer kicked into full swing, Root was desperate to look strong, and Mellon's stance that "we cannot suffer twin insurgencies, one at home and one abroad" became the Cabinet line. Stimson federalized both the Minnesota and Wisconsin National Guards and placed them under Root's command, but it would not be the last time he was overruled on Mellon's urging, and by winter he would have resigned, leaving Root without his most loyal and capable Cabinet secretary.
The Strike ended with tremendous violence on July 7th, 1917 - Bloody Saturday. The Minnesota National Guard's numbers were mysteriously swelled by hundreds of semi-discharged Army men attached as "Guard auxiliaries," but really there to make sure the Minnesotans followed federal orders. Hundreds of black strikebreakers recruited in Kentucky by General Mills over the last weeks of June were promised free passage to the United States "in return for service" and deployed against the striking workers as little more than a rowdy mob. The strikers had been ready for police violence and been relieved when it did not come, but were unprepared for experienced cavalry to be deployed against them and the seizure of the USRA railyards by the government early in the morning quickly ended their ability to paralyze things further.
Of all the moments of Root's Presidency, Bloody Saturday stands high up as one of the bleakest and certainly the most controversial. Eight lives were lost that day - seven strikers, including two women - and two hundred injured. It was the first time the government had deployed force to put down a strike since Pullman in 1894, and though the number of deaths then were higher, the massive victories of the labor movement and the relative friendliness towards workers from Presidents such as Hearst had persuaded a great many that such days were over, especially when many strikers drew the reasonable conclusion that after their participation in the war, their government would be grateful towards them. Not so - for a generation of laborers and veterans across the Upper Midwest, it was made enormously clear that the Liberal Party still represented big business, and it required men with the national celebrity and more importantly lack of strong policy opinions like John Pershing to break through to them years later..."
- The Root of the Problem: The Tumultuous Term of America's 29th President
"...strike's ending on July 11th, just under seven weeks after starting. Haywood and Quinlan were arrested and prosecuted for incitement and disturbing the public peace; that many of the local union leaders in Minnesota were left alone, but the prominent IWW leaders were targeted specifically, was lost on few. While both were eventually released on appeal in 1920 after their convictions, the damage was done, and the IWW's decline continued as the new decade emerged.
It can be said that most involved in the strike failed to emerge with their reputations intact, though the truth is more complicated. Lindbergh was caught between a rock and a hard place, neither endorsing nor condemning the strikes, and many working-class Norwegians felt that he was yet another Swede betraying them. But he was reelected by a wider margin in 1918 than he had been two years earlier, and many of he labor reforms he had championed were passed in his second term by Democratic supermajorities that made Minnesota one of the most left-wing states in the country from a policy standpoint. As was tradition in Minnesota, he did not seek a third two-year term, and died of a brain hemorrhage in 1924 as he was preparing to run for the Senate seat of the late Knute Nelson. Van Lear, for his part, was not reelected in 1918, defeated by a coalition of business interests, and to this day he remains Minneapolis' only Socialist Mayor, but many of his ideas lived on in his paper the Minnesota Daily Star.
The strike's real damage was to the slowly-recovering Liberal Party in the Upper Midwest more generally. Starting in 1912 on the West Coast, Liberal parties that could not defeat majority-Democratic electorates on their own began partnering on fusion tickets with Socialists, first at the municipal level and then, such as in 1914, successfully electing Senators in Washington and Oregon who were well to the left of their Eastern colleagues even under the same party banner, all in the name of curbing "machine politics." Van Lear's election had relied on such an unwieldy coalition to an extent, but the General Strike ended all that. The behavior of the Root administration convinced Socialists more or less permanently that whatever issues they had with sleazy Democratic patronage from a good-government perspective, it was a whole lot better than the oligarchic battery that Root, Van Devanter and others had just subjected them to. Fusionism died a violent death on July 7th, 1917, [1] and was fully and wholly buried two years later with Robert La Follette's defection to the Democratic Party that made Wisconsin as staunchly Democratic as Nebraska or West Virginia. [2]
While Christian Michelsen would be narrowly elected Governor in 1920 thanks to his stature in the Norwegian community and condemnation of the response to the strikes, he was a singular figure and would not seek reelection after a single term, more interested in cultivating the Norwegian nationalist party Fatherland League's American subsidiary; Liberals would not recover in Minnesota until the early 1940s with the emergence of Harry Stassen. For Socialists, though, it proved a time of ascendancy in the state, at least in Duluth and the Iron Range, which became along with Milwaukee one of their few outposts in the Midwest.
So while the individual protagonists of the strike may have not seen much advancement, it reinvigorated American labor at a critical hour in the postwar depression and marked the beginning of the sharp, decade-long wilderness years for the Liberals that few in Root's orbit would have expected after their recovery from the post-1904 nadir under Hughes, Stimson and others. A sea change was looming on the American horizon as it became an open question of what, exactly, the "New Republic" of the postwar era represented, and who it represented. And much of that started with some brave men throwing down their tools on June 1st in Minneapolis, mere weeks after the peace accords were signed and ratified..." [3]
- Second Wave: The Postwar Progressive Revolution of 1917-31
[1] Congrats @Curtain Jerker for calling this one...
[2] ...and to @DanMcCollum for correctly deducing this one
[3] That's it for the Minneapolis General Strike's position in the Red Summer, and while there's plenty of wildcatting and strikes throughout the Root years, this is the "big one," so to speak, that really starts our transition into the 1920s "Second Progressive Era."
There is a great deal of scholarship, particularly common in the 1970s and early 1980s, that sought to absolve many of Root's mistakes by shifting blame for them on overzealous Cabinet officials such as Van Devanter or ideologically rigid minds like Mellon (even as an effort to rehabilitate Mellon was underway by then, too). The Minneapolis General Strike seems like a clear case in which one would normally assume the minority view of Root as a well-meaning old man misled by his underlings would win out, but enough evidence exists that President Root not only agreed to Van Devanter's injunction but approved wholeheartedly of it, as can be seen in his response to Stimson's qualified opposition to using the Minnesota National Guard to crush the strike. "There are too many men sitting idle," Root wrote testily as Stimson suggested letting things play out in federal court, "and too many idle men make for combustible times." With violence escalating rapidly across the occupied Confederacy in early July as the Red Summer kicked into full swing, Root was desperate to look strong, and Mellon's stance that "we cannot suffer twin insurgencies, one at home and one abroad" became the Cabinet line. Stimson federalized both the Minnesota and Wisconsin National Guards and placed them under Root's command, but it would not be the last time he was overruled on Mellon's urging, and by winter he would have resigned, leaving Root without his most loyal and capable Cabinet secretary.
The Strike ended with tremendous violence on July 7th, 1917 - Bloody Saturday. The Minnesota National Guard's numbers were mysteriously swelled by hundreds of semi-discharged Army men attached as "Guard auxiliaries," but really there to make sure the Minnesotans followed federal orders. Hundreds of black strikebreakers recruited in Kentucky by General Mills over the last weeks of June were promised free passage to the United States "in return for service" and deployed against the striking workers as little more than a rowdy mob. The strikers had been ready for police violence and been relieved when it did not come, but were unprepared for experienced cavalry to be deployed against them and the seizure of the USRA railyards by the government early in the morning quickly ended their ability to paralyze things further.
Of all the moments of Root's Presidency, Bloody Saturday stands high up as one of the bleakest and certainly the most controversial. Eight lives were lost that day - seven strikers, including two women - and two hundred injured. It was the first time the government had deployed force to put down a strike since Pullman in 1894, and though the number of deaths then were higher, the massive victories of the labor movement and the relative friendliness towards workers from Presidents such as Hearst had persuaded a great many that such days were over, especially when many strikers drew the reasonable conclusion that after their participation in the war, their government would be grateful towards them. Not so - for a generation of laborers and veterans across the Upper Midwest, it was made enormously clear that the Liberal Party still represented big business, and it required men with the national celebrity and more importantly lack of strong policy opinions like John Pershing to break through to them years later..."
- The Root of the Problem: The Tumultuous Term of America's 29th President
"...strike's ending on July 11th, just under seven weeks after starting. Haywood and Quinlan were arrested and prosecuted for incitement and disturbing the public peace; that many of the local union leaders in Minnesota were left alone, but the prominent IWW leaders were targeted specifically, was lost on few. While both were eventually released on appeal in 1920 after their convictions, the damage was done, and the IWW's decline continued as the new decade emerged.
It can be said that most involved in the strike failed to emerge with their reputations intact, though the truth is more complicated. Lindbergh was caught between a rock and a hard place, neither endorsing nor condemning the strikes, and many working-class Norwegians felt that he was yet another Swede betraying them. But he was reelected by a wider margin in 1918 than he had been two years earlier, and many of he labor reforms he had championed were passed in his second term by Democratic supermajorities that made Minnesota one of the most left-wing states in the country from a policy standpoint. As was tradition in Minnesota, he did not seek a third two-year term, and died of a brain hemorrhage in 1924 as he was preparing to run for the Senate seat of the late Knute Nelson. Van Lear, for his part, was not reelected in 1918, defeated by a coalition of business interests, and to this day he remains Minneapolis' only Socialist Mayor, but many of his ideas lived on in his paper the Minnesota Daily Star.
The strike's real damage was to the slowly-recovering Liberal Party in the Upper Midwest more generally. Starting in 1912 on the West Coast, Liberal parties that could not defeat majority-Democratic electorates on their own began partnering on fusion tickets with Socialists, first at the municipal level and then, such as in 1914, successfully electing Senators in Washington and Oregon who were well to the left of their Eastern colleagues even under the same party banner, all in the name of curbing "machine politics." Van Lear's election had relied on such an unwieldy coalition to an extent, but the General Strike ended all that. The behavior of the Root administration convinced Socialists more or less permanently that whatever issues they had with sleazy Democratic patronage from a good-government perspective, it was a whole lot better than the oligarchic battery that Root, Van Devanter and others had just subjected them to. Fusionism died a violent death on July 7th, 1917, [1] and was fully and wholly buried two years later with Robert La Follette's defection to the Democratic Party that made Wisconsin as staunchly Democratic as Nebraska or West Virginia. [2]
While Christian Michelsen would be narrowly elected Governor in 1920 thanks to his stature in the Norwegian community and condemnation of the response to the strikes, he was a singular figure and would not seek reelection after a single term, more interested in cultivating the Norwegian nationalist party Fatherland League's American subsidiary; Liberals would not recover in Minnesota until the early 1940s with the emergence of Harry Stassen. For Socialists, though, it proved a time of ascendancy in the state, at least in Duluth and the Iron Range, which became along with Milwaukee one of their few outposts in the Midwest.
So while the individual protagonists of the strike may have not seen much advancement, it reinvigorated American labor at a critical hour in the postwar depression and marked the beginning of the sharp, decade-long wilderness years for the Liberals that few in Root's orbit would have expected after their recovery from the post-1904 nadir under Hughes, Stimson and others. A sea change was looming on the American horizon as it became an open question of what, exactly, the "New Republic" of the postwar era represented, and who it represented. And much of that started with some brave men throwing down their tools on June 1st in Minneapolis, mere weeks after the peace accords were signed and ratified..." [3]
- Second Wave: The Postwar Progressive Revolution of 1917-31
[1] Congrats @Curtain Jerker for calling this one...
[2] ...and to @DanMcCollum for correctly deducing this one
[3] That's it for the Minneapolis General Strike's position in the Red Summer, and while there's plenty of wildcatting and strikes throughout the Root years, this is the "big one," so to speak, that really starts our transition into the 1920s "Second Progressive Era."
I think I will be born in this timeline too.
The Ottoman Empire likely lost some lands, in Cincoverse UEFA post, Kosovo is certainly Ottoman land, which means that so are some parts of Macedonia (might be the entirety, might lose some lands to another state, but certainly enough remain Ottoman that Kosovo remain Ottoman land), which means that Tekirdağ (my mother's birthplace) is Ottoman land too, and Karaman is in the center of Anatolia, so my father is born too.
I think the only change in my (personal and unrelated to all politics) life will be the fact my father's birth town (Kılbasan) will have some Jews living in it, as my father, and a few other people from the town too, mentioned that it was discovered that inside the old cemetery (lots of Ottoman era tombstones that are barely standing), there were some Jewish tombstones, with some people from Israel, after it was discovered, going there to visit their ancestors graveyard.
This has me wondering if I would be born in the Cincoverse. Three of my grandparents' families were in Pittsburgh for generations. My fourth grandparent was born on the top of Lookout Mountain in Tennessee and the family came north in the 1920s. However, my ancestor from that side fought in the Civil War in the 7th Tennessee Cavalry which was a Union regiment.
I don't remember because it was so long ago, but in the Cincoverse, was there a large migration of Southern Unionists north in the after the war in the 1860s? If so, that part of the family could have come north 60 years early.
I don't remember because it was so long ago, but in the Cincoverse, was there a large migration of Southern Unionists north in the after the war in the 1860s? If so, that part of the family could have come north 60 years early.
El Paso probably wouldn’t be nearly as attractive to a Greek immigrant without being in the US, I’d imagine
There was indeed - a very large one, larger than OTL
Bit of a mix, in part because not only will the electoral college go away in the 1920s but RCV comes about in the 1990s.
Best way I could describe present day politics of the Cincoverse is that Youngstown OH is still super Dem while Marin County, CA is most certainly not. Draw whatever conclusions you want from that lol
Ah, but as Governor-turned-President Stassen, or Governor-turned-Senator Harry "I gave William Sprague IV a good fucking run for his money" Stassen, that us the question.
Or maybe just a random, briefly relevant character but serving nearly as long as Sprague in the Senate is just much funnier, and on brand for Mr. "He's Always Runnin'!"
As for myself, the Spanish parts parts of my family have been here for centuries, while the Irish part is more recent but was already in Panama by the PoD, so the main question is whether the Dutch Caribbean and Italian parts that came in the late 19th century still make the trip...
I cant top @Rattigan making Stassen an American autocrat-for-life so this is the direction I’m leaning for exactly the reasons you’re describing
Good stuff here with the historiography of how these men are looked at decades down the line. Also, it seems like Mellon is, if not revered, at least respected by this timeline's Austrian School when they pop up.
I mean, Hughes himself won election in 1912 in large part by "tailoring his message to a conservative or progressive audience depending on who he was speaking to" so it stands to figure that another Liberal Presidential candidate would run that successful playbook back, especially one who is (most likely) the prohibitive favorite going into the election in the first place. You can and should run a broad tent, above-the-fray campaign if you are the frontrunner.
Lie down with dogs and you can't be surprised you get fleas.
This is still frustrating as hell given the state's partisan lean and the political environment in 1920. You'd think I'd be used to Democrats blowing easily winnable elections by now but alas.
Which Party supported by most of Asian immigrants?
How Ghadar Party dealt with Failure of Indian Mutiny?
How Indian Mutiny viewed by Muslims and Hindu Right?
Was savarkar killed or jailed in this timeline?
How Ghadar Party dealt with Failure of Indian Mutiny?
How Indian Mutiny viewed by Muslims and Hindu Right?
Was savarkar killed or jailed in this timeline?
Mellon probably slots into the same role for people who have a boner for Hayek ITTL, I’d say, though that contingent is probably a good bit smaller than OTL
All to come!