*was*.He's KIA sometime in Tennessee campaign

It's George... He's been killed before and came back.. Or so he says ;)

The Crown Prince of Belgium being one of the most notable people to know this (having been at Los Pasos) and taking the lesson that if war is damaging and destructive, then it needs to happen to the other guy (rather than anything as inconsequential as Peace). I'm still trying to figure out how he is historically blamed for starting the CEW.

Well to be honest he's also come away with the belief that if war is to happen it is better if it happens on someone else's turf which considering Belgium's position is... shall we say not looking good? IIRC my OTL pre-WWI beliefs that's part of what drove the Belgian Congo as we know it as an assumed place to "be in exile" while any conflict in Europe played out. Didn't work that way but it was the general "plan".
Going to likely be a bit more "pressing" with what he's seen in America I'd think.

Well thank you!

You're welcome! (Don't let it go to your head :) )

The Mark IV was really just an “insert photo of tank here” moment haha but, yes, you’ll see Europe draw a lot of lessons from this war - especially the potential utility of rigid airships as an aerial bombing platform, without WW1 to interrupt innovations in that space from 1914-18 in Europe

Oh I'm sure there's a lot going on, Point: Didn't someone else OTHER than the Wright's make the first HTA flight in TTL? I ask because without that little 'coup' then there's no real reason for the US to be stuck a decade behind everyone else in aviation and in fact with the GAW going on there should be a load of innovation going on in aircraft design as well. (Also no NACA TTL which feeds into some 'future' events if it gets that far :) )

Another reason I'm curious is because of the number of casualties the US is taking in assaults should really lead to the advent of armored personnel carrier versions of the landships, (heavily advocating to call them "Tracks" because that still allows them to be MBT's in the future :) ) to help reduce those figures. The US has pretty good incentive to develop them.
There's also Walter Christie to consider, (unless he was killed TTL in the 1907 French Grand Prix) so "combat cars" and Mobile Artillery may also be in play here.

Oh you’ll see

Tease :)


Tis but a flesh wound! :)

Randy
 
You know, considering the destruction of Washington, and the occupation of Baltimore - as well as some of the hell the US is unleashing upon Confederates: I wonder if there will be an earlier push for amending the Geneva and Hague Conventions focused on the treatment of civilians. And if there is, I wonder if the CSA would sign any such agreements.
 
Don't lose sight of this section. The political leadership of the CSA has, since basically the start of the war, been utterly disconnected both from the facts on the ground as well as disconnected from the military leadership. We know that CSA generals have no qualms with simply ignoring and/or not fully telling politicians information about campaigns and operations and it seems like Patrick is (wisely) continuing that trend here.

Confederate political leadership is so lacking that generals are more or less dictating their own policy over civilian alongside military affairs. I'm now wondering if we get something like OTL China's Warlord Era postwar - sure, the CSA is de jure a single, independent country (minus Kentucky and Texas of course) but de facto it is a collection of fiefdoms divided among various generals and strongmen and Richmond's control of, say, central Georgia only really exists on paper.
Yeah, I'm convinced that the thread that keeps the Confederacy together is
A) None of the other states are willing to state-wide give up slavery in exchange for the ability to peace out.
B) A joint feeling of Unity in resisting the US occupation.
C) Huey Long managing the Hurculean Task of bringing the entire country back together.
Which probably means the US pulls out its occupying troops (other than in New Orleans/watchers along the Mississippi river) in one single action. I'm honestly guessing that it may be 1935 before the first time that a train can go from New Orleans to Richmond. (It couldn't prior to the GAW. ) The question is which is stronger, wanting to standardize on the most common gauge in the Confederacy or wanting to standardize on the Virginia/North Carolina/USA/Mexico(?) gauge...
 
You know, considering the destruction of Washington, and the occupation of Baltimore - as well as some of the hell the US is unleashing upon Confederates: I wonder if there will be an earlier push for amending the Geneva and Hague Conventions focused on the treatment of civilians. And if there is, I wonder if the CSA would sign any such agreements.
I doubt such a document would be done in wartime, so the question of how long the window of peace (if there is one!) is.
 
Pershing received Winn with courtesy but asked him to ponder how an American army could be justified in such "soft treatment of an enemy city" after what had befallen Baltimore and Washington as well as the bombardments of Cincinnati and Harrisburg and repeated aerial raids on Philadelphia. "War is hell," Pershing replied tersely, "and it cannot be refined. This war can only end if your people can no longer fight it or unequivocally surrender, and I will prosecute this war to effect the former until you all come to your senses and pursue the latter." Nonetheless, he agreed to allow the evacuation of women, children and slaves from the city during a three-day ceasefire on May 12th, before resuming his offensive maneuvers, but not behind American lines where they would become his army's responsibility. The quote "war is hell" is specifically from then on attributed to him, and easily one of the most famous utterings in American history..." [1]
Lol.
THe parallels here are great. I'm loving Pershing as Sherman
a provision that Patrick had reluctantly acceded to provided it be kept secret from the bombastic new President in Richmond, James K. Vardaman.
Watch now as Mason Patrick is once again sacked, and replaced by someone that Vardman loves.... 🙄

ala: Johnston with Bragg....but I honestly don't think that there is anyone left in the Confederate military leadership that can take over.

The actual Mayor in 1916 was James G. Woodward. As far as I can tell from Woodward's wikipedia page, he would have either (flip coin) A) been drunk into insensibility at this point or B) blamed the negros for the US getting that far and herded them into the line of fire.

He's probably a Red Scarf then. ...
 
You know, considering the destruction of Washington, and the occupation of Baltimore - as well as some of the hell the US is unleashing upon Confederates: I wonder if there will be an earlier push for amending the Geneva and Hague Conventions focused on the treatment of civilians. And if there is, I wonder if the CSA would sign any such agreements.

I doubt such a document would be done in wartime, so the question of how long the window of peace (if there is one!) is.

Do we have a Geneva and Hague convention in this ATL? I am sure something happened, but I can't recall reading about it.
 
It's George... He's been killed before and came back.. Or so he says ;)



Well to be honest he's also come away with the belief that if war is to happen it is better if it happens on someone else's turf which considering Belgium's position is... shall we say not looking good? IIRC my OTL pre-WWI beliefs that's part of what drove the Belgian Congo as we know it as an assumed place to "be in exile" while any conflict in Europe played out. Didn't work that way but it was the general "plan".
Going to likely be a bit more "pressing" with what he's seen in America I'd think.



You're welcome! (Don't let it go to your head :) )



Oh I'm sure there's a lot going on, Point: Didn't someone else OTHER than the Wright's make the first HTA flight in TTL? I ask because without that little 'coup' then there's no real reason for the US to be stuck a decade behind everyone else in aviation and in fact with the GAW going on there should be a load of innovation going on in aircraft design as well. (Also no NACA TTL which feeds into some 'future' events if it gets that far :) )

Another reason I'm curious is because of the number of casualties the US is taking in assaults should really lead to the advent of armored personnel carrier versions of the landships, (heavily advocating to call them "Tracks" because that still allows them to be MBT's in the future :) ) to help reduce those figures. The US has pretty good incentive to develop them.
There's also Walter Christie to consider, (unless he was killed TTL in the 1907 French Grand Prix) so "combat cars" and Mobile Artillery may also be in play here.



Tease :)



Tis but a flesh wound! :)

Randy
Correct - Alberto Santos-Dumont, with his team of French engineers.
You know, considering the destruction of Washington, and the occupation of Baltimore - as well as some of the hell the US is unleashing upon Confederates: I wonder if there will be an earlier push for amending the Geneva and Hague Conventions focused on the treatment of civilians. And if there is, I wonder if the CSA would sign any such agreements.
Geneva/Hague preceded WW1 iOTL too, no?
Yeah, I'm convinced that the thread that keeps the Confederacy together is
A) None of the other states are willing to state-wide give up slavery in exchange for the ability to peace out.
B) A joint feeling of Unity in resisting the US occupation.
C) Huey Long managing the Hurculean Task of bringing the entire country back together.
Which probably means the US pulls out its occupying troops (other than in New Orleans/watchers along the Mississippi river) in one single action. I'm honestly guessing that it may be 1935 before the first time that a train can go from New Orleans to Richmond. (It couldn't prior to the GAW. ) The question is which is stronger, wanting to standardize on the most common gauge in the Confederacy or wanting to standardize on the Virginia/North Carolina/USA/Mexico(?) gauge...
To build on your and @Curtain Jerker ’s point, yes, state capacity will be a very loose term at least for most of the 1920s/30s and warlord era China is at least a decent analogue (though personalist political machines rather than generals themselves seizing power)
Bring on the pain.
“March to the Sea: this time with way more war crimes!”
You can just see the conversation between the mayor and Pershing in a dramatic Hollywood movie, Atlanta smoking in the background with a dramatic brooding score
Absolutely
 
I'm wondering what will happen to General Patrick postwar. Given his command during the Sack of Washington, it might be kinder if he was underneath an exploding shell at some point in the siege of Atlanta.

Also, I've been reading about the various post-WWI trials (Leipzig and the Istanbul trials), there is no way that this is a model for what will happen post GAW. The US *might* be willing to have Mexico, or maybe Chile (assuming Chile settles down before the people involved die of old age) conduct trials for their own soldiers who committed war crimes, but *not* the CSA. (I'm not honestly sure the Mexicans would have gone full trial for Huerte if they had gotten him, but I'm *guessing* the Americans would have been willing to give them that)


In terms of a "good general", I'm wondering if there is a confederate general who spent most of the war assigned to defending Arizona and Los Pasos who then manages to be reassigned to someplace remote (Tallahassee).
 
Correct - Alberto Santos-Dumont, with his team of French engineers.

Geneva/Hague preceded WW1 iOTL too, no?

To build on your and @Curtain Jerker ’s point, yes, state capacity will be a very loose term at least for most of the 1920s/30s and warlord era China is at least a decent analogue (though personalist political machines rather than generals themselves seizing power)

“March to the Sea: this time with way more war crimes!”

Absolutely
As the last of the Belgian Royal Family is tracked down in 1932 in Fort Myers, FL, three years after the Floridian State government regained control of that portion of the State.

Having said that, given the Texas Revolt, and the clogging of the Mississippi, I'm not sure at what point a significant part of Arkansas will fall. (or for that matter Louisiana outside of New Orleans_. Maybe *that* is a significant part of Long's rise to power, the fact that Louisiana and Arkansas are relatively untouched compared to the rest of the Confederacy. The leader of the well fed and equipped Louisianans would be convincing...
 
Correct - Alberto Santos-Dumont, with his team of French engineers.

Geneva/Hague preceded WW1 iOTL too, no?

The earliest treaties go back to the 1860s and were focused primarily upon combatants, prisoners of war, and their care/rights. Protections for civilians didn't become an issue until the post-WW2 Geneva Convention in 1949 (though 1899 and 1907 both included some protections for civilians in occupied territory). I could see after Washington and Baltimore (which saw civilians literally being enslaved!) there might be some push to get an international agreement to secure further protections, but for the efforts to not come to fruition when the CEW breaks out. Then, assuming there are any atrocities in that conflict, for a new Geneva Convention to occur in the wake of that war.

Which, once again, leads to the problem of the CSA signing or not. I could potentially see it not initially - the government is going to be doing its best just to hold ground and assert its own authority after all, and its been hinted that they are also going to be in deep denial over their own actions. But when Long comes to power, I could see him pushing through acceptance of the Treaty as a way to show that the CSA had risen from anarchy and is now ready to reemerge upon the world stage as a NOT pariah (perhaps its part of his public and diplomatic efforts prior to the Reannexation of Kentucky - a way to allay SOME fears that the Confederacy isn't going to just march in and cause bedlam)

Just some thoughts I've been chasing after the inital question came to mind
 
Had a sad thought tonight. There is something where the USA/CSA border meets the Atlantic that could end up the same as OTL or be *completely* gone: the ponies of Assateague Island (as in the book "Misty of Chincoteague", Assateague is the one with only ponies, Chincoteague is the inhabited one that they are forced to swim to). Note at the time of the Civil War, as far as I can tell, there was functionally *one* barrier island with Assateague connected to Fenwick Island Delaware, requiring either going through Delaware or Virginia to get to Ocean City until a hurricane in 1933 disconnected the islands.
 
Between Two Chiles
"...triumph of the "New Republic" even as the war stalemated along the Maule River, with "Colorados" unable to force their way past Blanco defenses but Aldunate's men nonetheless too poorly equipped to muster a serious counterattack; this dichotomy, of progress on paper but frustration as far as facts on the ground, was perhaps symbolically representative of what was to come of Alessandrist Chile over the next eight years until the Revolution of 1924 put the flailing polity out of its misery.

It should not be understated, however, what a new leaf the Constitution of 1916 represented, and the optimism and enthusiasm that greeted Arturo Alessandri as its first President. The provisional Chilean government, dominated by the center and center-left, promulgated the new constitution that signified the end of the Old Republic. [1] The powers of the Presidency were greatly reduced while the Presidential term was extended to six years, with the prohibition on succeeding oneself maintained but the lifetime limit of a single term lifted, rare provisions of the New Republic's governmental structure that would be maintained during the Socialist Republic in turn. The Senate was reduced in number and powers, shifting much of the influence to an expanded and much more influential Chamber of Deputies, suggesting to some that the New Republic would be parliamentary; the powers of the judiciary were further strengthened as well, to provide an additional check.

The constitution was remarkably progressive and drew heavily on ideas from both the United States and Argentina, but went further than either in many ways. The right to vote was enshrined as "inviolable" and indeed was the first article; the second article was the right to "free speech and conscience," with the Church and the Chilean state separated formally. Elections were to be regulated by a judicial electoral tribunal to end vote-rigging as had been common in the Old Republic, and the "dignity of the Chilean worker and their rights" were not to be "denigrated or denied," which the Figueroa Larrain brothers drafted in a fashion to avoid more serious worker's rights being constitutionalized. Considering the rampant corruption of the Blanco political class and power of the conservative Church prior to the Grito de 18 de Enero, this represented a sea change in Chilean politics.

Nonetheless, the explosion of radicalism across Chile in 1915 left many citizens feeling dismayed that, after Alessandri's bursting onto the political scene the previous January, this was the best his movement could do. Recabarren did not denounce the document out of hand - a fact few of his fellow revolutionary socialists ever forgot or let him forget - but he nonetheless referred to it as a "well-intended reform, but born of bourgeois principles and grievances rather than those of labor" and expressed skepticism about many of the provisions it lacked, most notably a more explicit defense of labor unions or the ten-hour working day; others were curious why land reform was not enshrined alongside the separation of Church and state, or why socialism was not proposed as a foundational aspect of the state. Even Alessandri had wanted to write legislative initiative for the President into the constitution, and its denial to him frustrated him to no end, as he predicted (correctly) that the structure of government would not work if a Chamber of Deputies that disliked an incumbent President was seated and refused to work with him.

Alessandri, standing as the only serious candidate for President, was thus easily elected and was inaugurated on April 10th, with as many as half a million citizens of Santiago in the streets the day of his inauguration, which was guarded under tight watch by Altamirano and the most elite of the Chilean Carabineros. In his address from the same window of La Moneda where President Riesco had been slain just over a year earlier, Alessandri spoke for close to an hour, without the use of notes, declaring "the dawn of a new day in the new Chile" and promised "the crushing of the oligarchy, insurgency and banditry in all of the country."

This was easier said than done, and not only due to increasingly fidgety Socialists in the Copiapo region who had still refused to submit to formal political power in Santiago and in concurrent Congressional elections swept essentially every district north of La Serena (Alessandri's Radicals, of course, dominated not just the Central Valley but all of Southern Chile "in absentia," thus enjoying a supermajority that made a farce of the new democratic constitution their champion had just helped shape.) Chile had exited the war about a year earlier in economic collapse, and despite the resumption of trade with Europe - Britain in particular - the ruinous terms placed upon it and the partial occupation of some northern ports by Bolivian soldiers to see to it that reparations were successfully paid had nonetheless created a situation where Chile was only barely able to feed itself thanks to humanitarian imports, let alone economically thrive, especially with the South in Blanco hands. Criminal gangs thus roamed the countryside, often in combination with the rural police, and a state of lawlessness descended over the country that Alessandri for all his good intentions was poorly equipped to combat. Blanco paramilitaries also found it much easier to infiltrate northwards amongst those sympathizers who had not fled southwards during the chaos of 1915, and the new "Alessandrist" Constitution seemed to confirm all of their worst fears about the New Republic, particularly the severely curtailed public role of the Church in matters of state. Despite the anticlerical program of Alessandri being severely cabined compared to other liberal regimes around the world - church schools and properties were not seized, and no religious orders were formally expelled - the curtailment of the Church's prerogatives nonetheless offended a great many Chileans who had turned to faith in the aftermath of the Great American War's various debacles and now saw Alessandri as persecuting them alongside the clergy. This, far more than the conservative political instincts of the Blancos, was what inspired a spate of terrorism across Colorado-held Chile after Alessandri's inauguration, presaging the rise of right-wing, Catholic paramilitarism throughout the rest of the 20th century..."

- Between Two Chiles

[1] Sans Balmaceda and the 1891 Chilean Civil War, there is no distinction between "Liberal Republic" and "Old Republic" in TTL Chilean historiography.
 
Is it me or Chile will become the OTL version of Colombia with something similar to La Violencia?
Chile over the next eight years until the Revolution of 1924 put the flailing polity out of its misery.
Notice this part?
The Treaty is viewed as the direct precursor to the Chilean Civil War that erupted soon after its completion, and the economic dislocation from the Great American War, civil war and punitive financial conditions imposed upon Chile took the country from one of the wealthiest per capita in the Americas (albeit grossly unequal) to one of the poorest, with it becoming one of the few South American states with net outmigration in the 1910s and 1920s. This crippling poverty and political instability was a direct cause of the final rise and consolidation of the Socialist Republic in 1924, which would last for the ensuing sixty-six years.
This one also.
 
presaging the rise of right-wing, Catholic paramilitarism throughout the rest of the 20th century..."
Seems like the Socialist Republic will finally collapse due to Paramilitarists atlast couping the government in 1990. I wonder if Pinochet will play any role in this....
until the Revolution of 1924 put the flailing polity out of its misery.
Seems like that the Revolution of 1924 will simmilar to the https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gov...ber,Arturo Alessandri's deadlocked government
 
This one also.

It seems a LOT of regimes collapse during the early 1990s. Its when we see Quebec officially gain its independence from Canada, the fall of the French State and its transition to whatever comes next, and now the fall of the Chilean Socialist Republic.

I think its also been stated that there is a significant economic collapse either in the 1980s or 90s, which would explain a lot of it. Either way - it seems like a pretty craptastic decade all in all! :)
 
Seems like the Socialist Republic will finally collapse due to Paramilitarists atlast couping the government in 1990. I wonder if Pinochet will play any role in this....
Unless the author changed it, the Socialist Republic of Chile goes down peacefully with its successor still being left-wing.
 
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