Yes. We had. With Less Russian influence in Persia, the Constitutional Revolution was more of a success than OTL. Also no Anglo-Russian Convention. Persia is entirely British.
Basically, this, though there’s still a Russophilic streak to some Qajars who chafe at the more constitutional role of the Majlis here
What topic about Persia could that update showcase?
Also the last update mademe both insanly sad and patriotic for some reason. Like that feeling when Americans see Nathan Hale being executed. Seems like we will give UK their Vietnam/ Spain... Unless Ireland has already given one.Also seems like Bose did a 180°turn from otl. Though it seems fair as there more support for violent revolution at home than in otl.Also seems like the Northeast Anarchy will feed more into the Opium Trade Arc rather than the Swaraj Arc. Kolkata is there for Swaraj.
Spain is a decent comparison. Think of Ghadar as losing the battle but Britain will be hard pressed to ever win the war.

Yeah, Swaraj will have much more to do with other parts of India than the NE - the Golden Triangle will nonetheless be very, very important to Asia’s TTL development and not in a good way
 
Mosaic: The Endurance of South Africa
"...considerably more hesitancy in Cape Town. It had been under a Conservative government in 1877 that the attempted Carnarvon Plan had been pursued at the behest of the Colonial Office to amalgamate South Africa into a single entity combining the English settler colonies at the Cape and Natal with Native kingdoms and the Boer States, an enterprise that had ended in disaster and fomented mistrust between the region's [1] polities for decades to come. So it was with more than a little trepidation that the Malcolm-Jagow Convention, signed in Hamburg between the British and German governments without input from the Parliament of South Africa, was received by local leaders, who saw in its contours the long shadow of similar schemes hatched in London forty years earlier.

The geopolitical situation was thus badly scrambled. The Free Republics were now hemmed in on both sides on the map by British red both to their southwest and now to their north; despite Oostburg's booming growth, British possession of Lourenco Marques directly threatened Boer access to the sea and placed a level of dependency on British commerce that had not been there before. The Germanophile governments of the Free Republics had long suspected that Portugal's hold on Mozambique was waning, but had held out hope that an alliance of Germany and the Netherlands would impress upon the British the need to preserve the independence and dignity of the Boers; Berlin's eagerness to split Portuguese Austral-Africa in half with Britain and leave Pretoria and Bloemfontein out to dry in the process put paid to such ideas. It was thus generally assumed, after two decades of improving relations even despite the occasional bellicosity from Joseph Chamberlain, that the next part of the plan for Britain was to absorb Basutoland, Swatiland and Zululand and then force the Boers into a confederation of states stretching from Mombasa in the north all the way to the Cape which would inevitably be dominated by culturally and politically Anglophile settlers.

Ironically, the constituency most in favor of this process were the Cape Dutch, who were increasingly outnumbered demographically thanks both to large-scale immigration (especially from Britain's West Country, Cornwall, and Wales) and the increasing outmigration of poorer Cape Dutch into the interior to work in the booming goldfields of the Witwatersrand. [2] The common view amongst many of the Afrikaner Bond's most outspoken members was that only by uniting with the Boers of further inland, rather than simply following them on a Little Trek via railroad to flee English cultural hegemony, would the Afrikaner culture thrive and be able to dominate the whole of southern Africa. [3] Thus it was that SAP, as well as the declining conservative Progressive Party that had started losing steam with the deaths of its chief ideologue, Thomas Scanlen, and chief financier, fruit baron Cecil Rhodes, became as leery in 1916 of "Unionism" as their forebears had been in 1877 of similar ideas; put simply, the liberal Merriman government based in trade-dependent and urbane Cape Town had little interest in subsuming its interests (and, perhaps in less noble terms, those of its English-speaking constituents) to Pretoria and what a great many thought were outright theocratic Dutch Reformed farmers and burghers with little care for the affairs of the Cape.

The elections of 1916 thus occurred under this cloud, with the SAP winning a reduced majority, but a majority nonetheless, on this platform of total opposition to "further Union." The Afrikaner Bond emerged as the chief opposition party as anti-Union Progressives flocked to the SAP out of fears of splitting the vote, and the first independent socialist politicians who would eventually form the South Africa Labor Party entered Parliament for the first time. The elections revealed a restive South Africa, one that was staunchly imperial in its outlook but firmly committed to the longstanding principles of local rule, and while proud of London for its new territories were uninterested, once again, in seeing their country be used as a tool in the Colonial Office's world games; it also revealed a Cape Dutch community that increasingly identified its interests on ethnic, rather than regional, terms, an ominous sign for social harmony.

Merriman retired in June of 1916, not long after the successful polls, shortly before his 75th birthday, having governed South Africa for over a decade. His replacement would be James Molteno, son of former Prime Minister John, and it was the younger scion of the Molteno family who would user in with his new majority what is today referred to as the "South African Model." Merriman had been a staunch opponent of women's suffrage and an alteration of the qualified franchise that set a property requirement of fifty pounds since 1899 under John Sprigg; the party's grassroots had shifted against both of these policies, however, and Molteno followed them, in late 1916 following Australia in granting women the vote across the land while reducing the qualified franchise to thirty pounds, allowing tens of thousands of additional voters onto the rolls and making the country's democracy far more universal. Of course, there were cynical political reasons for this, too; women were thought of as being even anti-Unionist than most men (though less so among the Cape Dutch) and it was widely assumed that the thousands of Natives allowed onto the rolls with the reduced property qualifications would support the SAP to avoid the threat of falling under Boer rule. The campaign for expanded suffrage, then, was the other side of the coin of the struggle against Unionism for Molteno's government..."

- Mosaic: The Endurance of South Africa

[1] I'm going to need a good name for the "greater South Africa" region since it's balkanized ITTL. "Transzambezia," maybe?
[2] And, it should be noted, much fewer of these British immigrants winding up in the Transvaal than OTL, thus making the Cape and Natal noticeably more British and the OFS/Transvaal noticeably more Afrikaner
[3] A view that inevitably won out over more moderate instincts in OTL
 
What is Muslim attitude towards full independence? Also is bose trying recruit Muslims within Revolutionary organizations as well?

What is situation of hindu right and savarkar?
Bose hasn’t fully emerged as a true leader yet, but his approach will be more Ataturkian than anything else (I.e. agnostic to sectarian concerns, at least superficially)

Cant say I know enough about Hindutva at this point in Indian history to comment.
 
Don't know much about South Africa pre-WWII so it is interesting to read your posts then do Wiki-walks to learn more about the OTL people you mention. Good stuff!
 
"...considerably more hesitancy in Cape Town. It had been under a Conservative government in 1877 that the attempted Carnarvon Plan had been pursued at the behest of the Colonial Office to amalgamate South Africa into a single entity combining the English settler colonies at the Cape and Natal with Native kingdoms and the Boer States, an enterprise that had ended in disaster and fomented mistrust between the region's [1] polities for decades to come. So it was with more than a little trepidation that the Malcolm-Jagow Convention, signed in Hamburg between the British and German governments without input from the Parliament of South Africa, was received by local leaders, who saw in its contours the long shadow of similar schemes hatched in London forty years earlier.

The geopolitical situation was thus badly scrambled. The Free Republics were now hemmed in on both sides on the map by British red both to their southwest and now to their north; despite Oostburg's booming growth, British possession of Lourenco Marques directly threatened Boer access to the sea and placed a level of dependency on British commerce that had not been there before. The Germanophile governments of the Free Republics had long suspected that Portugal's hold on Mozambique was waning, but had held out hope that an alliance of Germany and the Netherlands would impress upon the British the need to preserve the independence and dignity of the Boers; Berlin's eagerness to split Portuguese Austral-Africa in half with Britain and leave Pretoria and Bloemfontein out to dry in the process put paid to such ideas. It was thus generally assumed, after two decades of improving relations even despite the occasional bellicosity from Joseph Chamberlain, that the next part of the plan for Britain was to absorb Basutoland, Swatiland and Zululand and then force the Boers into a confederation of states stretching from Mombasa in the north all the way to the Cape which would inevitably be dominated by culturally and politically Anglophile settlers.

Ironically, the constituency most in favor of this process were the Cape Dutch, who were increasingly outnumbered demographically thanks both to large-scale immigration (especially from Britain's West Country, Cornwall, and Wales) and the increasing outmigration of poorer Cape Dutch into the interior to work in the booming goldfields of the Witwatersrand. [2] The common view amongst many of the Afrikaner Bond's most outspoken members was that only by uniting with the Boers of further inland, rather than simply following them on a Little Trek via railroad to flee English cultural hegemony, would the Afrikaner culture thrive and be able to dominate the whole of southern Africa. [3] Thus it was that SAP, as well as the declining conservative Progressive Party that had started losing steam with the deaths of its chief ideologue, Thomas Scanlen, and chief financier, fruit baron Cecil Rhodes, became as leery in 1916 of "Unionism" as their forebears had been in 1877 of similar ideas; put simply, the liberal Merriman government based in trade-dependent and urbane Cape Town had little interest in subsuming its interests (and, perhaps in less noble terms, those of its English-speaking constituents) to Pretoria and what a great many thought were outright theocratic Dutch Reformed farmers and burghers with little care for the affairs of the Cape.

The elections of 1916 thus occurred under this cloud, with the SAP winning a reduced majority, but a majority nonetheless, on this platform of total opposition to "further Union." The Afrikaner Bond emerged as the chief opposition party as anti-Union Progressives flocked to the SAP out of fears of splitting the vote, and the first independent socialist politicians who would eventually form the South Africa Labor Party entered Parliament for the first time. The elections revealed a restive South Africa, one that was staunchly imperial in its outlook but firmly committed to the longstanding principles of local rule, and while proud of London for its new territories were uninterested, once again, in seeing their country be used as a tool in the Colonial Office's world games; it also revealed a Cape Dutch community that increasingly identified its interests on ethnic, rather than regional, terms, an ominous sign for social harmony.

Merriman retired in June of 1916, not long after the successful polls, shortly before his 75th birthday, having governed South Africa for over a decade. His replacement would be James Molteno, son of former Prime Minister John, and it was the younger scion of the Molteno family who would user in with his new majority what is today referred to as the "South African Model." Merriman had been a staunch opponent of women's suffrage and an alteration of the qualified franchise that set a property requirement of fifty pounds since 1899 under John Sprigg; the party's grassroots had shifted against both of these policies, however, and Molteno followed them, in late 1916 following Australia in granting women the vote across the land while reducing the qualified franchise to thirty pounds, allowing tens of thousands of additional voters onto the rolls and making the country's democracy far more universal. Of course, there were cynical political reasons for this, too; women were thought of as being even anti-Unionist than most men (though less so among the Cape Dutch) and it was widely assumed that the thousands of Natives allowed onto the rolls with the reduced property qualifications would support the SAP to avoid the threat of falling under Boer rule. The campaign for expanded suffrage, then, was the other side of the coin of the struggle against Unionism for Molteno's government..."

- Mosaic: The Endurance of South Africa

[1] I'm going to need a good name for the "greater South Africa" region since it's balkanized ITTL. "Transzambezia," maybe?
[2] And, it should be noted, much fewer of these British immigrants winding up in the Transvaal than OTL, thus making the Cape and Natal noticeably more British and the OFS/Transvaal noticeably more Afrikaner
[3] A view that inevitably won out over more moderate instincts in OTL
So in the British controlled areas a person entirely of African blood can vote if they own property worth 30 pounds? How difficult would that have been? Is that owning a horse? Your own set of tools? When did Natives get the right to vote in any British Possession south of the Sahara iOTL?
 
Don't know much about South Africa pre-WWII so it is interesting to read your posts then do Wiki-walks to learn more about the OTL people you mention. Good stuff!
Thanks!

It’s a really interesting period and place, tbh. The Boer War itself is a fascinating clusterfuck and its role in British history is often underrated (as is just how much the rest of the world turned against Britain between 1898-1901 over it) and the debates around forming South Africa in 1910, of which Merriman/Molteno were a big part, are depressing to read with our benefit of hindsight (the Liberal government of Asquith ignored loud warnings from Merriman about what would happen if the reactionary Afrikaners were allowed to dominate SA due to their guilt over how the Boers were rounded into camps by Kitchener - the dangers of conducting foreign policy through a domestic lens rather than facts on the ground)
 
So in the British controlled areas a person entirely of African blood can vote if they own property worth 30 pounds? How difficult would that have been? Is that owning a horse? Your own set of tools? When did Natives get the right to vote in any British Possession south of the Sahara iOTL?
I have no idea what it represents it’s purely a lift off Wikipedia haha

But yes, pre-1910 the Cape had a qualified franchise which, in theory, was race-blind even if in practice it disqualified proportionately African Native residents (which in the Cape were either nomadic Khoisan people or the Xhosa in the Port Elizabeth/Natal area)
 
Is the SA franchise of 30 pounds only for non-White South Africans or all men and women in the country?
Everyone. The Cape qualified franchise was regarded as progressive specifically because it was, in theory, colorblind. Of course whites were way more likely to meet its qualifications (*way* more), but at least on paper it applied to everyone equally and all who qualified enjoyed equal right to vote
 
It seems that the franchise was based on the value of property owned. By 1910s South Africa standards that is progressive, but it still isn't universal suffrage so it still has a restrictive, regressive component to it that the USA, UK, Spain, Argentina etc. would look and chuckle at.
 
With Revolutionary movements crystallizing in Bengal under bose will create grassroot support for independence among other north eastern states? Assam, manipur and others? In canon Bose greatly supported by bengali industrialists based on rangoon. Is it same here?

Will there be any impact on revolutionary movement focused on north east? Greater participation of Natives maybe?
 
Hmm... What's you know what's common between the countries covered in the last two updates...? Gandhi... what's he doing? Also seems like the Want for an Anglo Majority might just save the Boers from Kitchener...
 
It seems that the franchise was based on the value of property owned. By 1910s South Africa standards that is progressive, but it still isn't universal suffrage so it still has a restrictive, regressive component to it that the USA, UK, Spain, Argentina etc. would look and chuckle at.
100%. But by OTL South African standards to come later? Hyper radical
With Revolutionary movements crystallizing in Bengal under bose will create grassroot support for independence among other north eastern states? Assam, manipur and others? In canon Bose greatly supported by bengali industrialists based on rangoon. Is it same here?

Will there be any impact on revolutionary movement focused on north east? Greater participation of Natives maybe?
Some of the far-eastern states more culturally similar to Burma could indeed want to exit at some point, sure.
Hmm... What's you know what's common between the countries covered in the last two updates...? Gandhi... what's he doing? Also seems like the Want for an Anglo Majority might just save the Boers from Kitchener...
Good catch, glad you noticed his absence! We’ll touch on him eventually - it is not by accident that I have kept him firmly planted in SA

And, yeah. Exactly. Both white-ruled halves of OTL South Africa are becoming more ethnically homogenous as a result, though Cape Dutch minority will still be very important (a bit like a more socially integrated Quebecois, perhaps)
 
Will there be any impact on revolutionary movement focused on north east? Greater participation of Natives maybe?
They'll not be Important for the India storyline. They'll just be there for the Northeast to be ungovernable for Opium Trade to be done for the China storyline... As much we want for the first Mizo Martyrs for Swaraj, we'll have to make do with the rest of India..
 
They'll not be Important for the India storyline. They'll just be there for the Northeast to be ungovernable for Opium Trade to be done for the China storyline... As much we want for the first Mizo Martyrs for Swaraj, we'll have to make do with the rest of India..
Considering how late the Mizo Hills were attached to the Raj maybe they wind up in Burma instead (unlikely, but possible).
Gandhi =ttl's Nelson Mandela?
Nah
 
Part of the issue with Mandela is that by the time he was jailed, there were dozens of countries in Africa where the Natives had either complete (or significant) control of the governments and South Africa was significantly behind the times. The only way that I can see dozens of countries with Natives in control is if after the CEW nobody grabs significant parts of French controlled Africa. And while it may be interesting distributing them at the peace table (Italy gets every French area between Morocco and Somalia that has a Mediterranean or Indian Ocean Tributary coastline) and Germany *might* want some of the coastal states, does anyone even *want* Mali or Niger?


In fact that issue *might* apply worldwide. I simply can't see Italy wanting anything beyond Somaliland and I'm not sure Germany will *want* everything beyond that. (other than to strip it from the French. Does Germany *really* want half a dozen islands in the Caribbean (from the German Point of View) filled with French speaking Negros producing nothing except Bananas and Sugar? Do they want all of Indochina? (They aren't getting Formosa, the author has said the Japanese get it). In terms of the Caribbean, I could see the Germans offering them for sale and deliberately asking the Americans whether they *want* the Brazilians to have advanced bases that close to the mouth of the Canal and thus the US making an offer for *everything* that was French *simply* to keep the Brazilians farther away. (The author hasn't said what the US-Brazilian peace treaty looks like, but I believe has said that it will be quite some time before relations come out of the freezer)

This is also likely to see more interaction between Haiti and the formerly French Caribbean than iOTL. Could Haitian *replace* French as the language of these Islands?
 
Last edited:
In fact that issue *might* apply worldwide. I simply can't see Italy wanting anything beyond Somaliland
Italy Might just take Tunisia and Libya and Doedecanese from the future Italo-Ottoman War.
On a Side Note, Greece might get some of Thessaly from that war.
BTW, how would Russia react to the war.
 
Last edited:
Top