The Grand Duchy of the West - A Valois-Burgundian TL

[Quinkana]

In this TL, France is kind of having a dark period from 1486 to 1530, giving that they lost the mad war rather then winning it as otl. 1530 is when things are gonna look much better for them and no one else.

Oof that doesn't sound good for our Brabantian friends, I just hope Picardy doesn't get lost and Brittany survives as a dukedom.

Philip is definitely aiming to take his whole inheritance back.

Yeah he defo wants to do that, however, would he hold it for long alongside Lorraine?

Richard is gonna be getting some lands in France due to this calamity. Of course whether or not he will keep them in the long run is another question.

Considering what you just said about France probably not.

First Burgundy, then Frisia. Frisia is gonna be Philip's last conquest before his death in 1517.

Ah that's quite nice indeed, Frisia is the last piece of the proverbial puzzle after all, and going further south and east would become harder and harder. Taking all of Friesa would be great tho, it'd allow the dukes of Brabant to control more of the northern German coast and the Baltic trade after all.

 

[BlueFlowwer]

Oof that doesn't sound good for our Brabantian friends, I just hope Picardy doesn't get lost and Brittany survives as a dukedom.

Let me just put it like this. The Valois-Burgundian House is gonna keep the majority of their holdings. As for Brittany, they are living on borrowed time in a sense.

Yeah he defo wants to do that, however, would he hold it for long alongside Lorraine?

Lorraine and Brabant have a shared vision right now and it's time to renew the alliance. And as for how long Brabant is gonna hold Burgundy, let me just say that Grand Duke Philip are gonna be long dead by then.

Considering what you just said about France probably not.

The Empire Strikes Back in 1530-35.

Ah that's quite nice indeed, Frisia is the last piece of the proverbial puzzle after all, and going further south and east would become harder and harder. Taking all of Friesa would be great tho, it'd allow the dukes of Brabant to control more of the northern German coast and the Baltic trade after all.

Frisia is the final expansion that Philip makes. The whole purpose of his eldest daughter Margarethas marriage to the future Christian II was to make a alliance to retake Frisia in the end. Events in Cleves and the french invasion got in the way. Retaking Burgundy is the current priority now that Philip has France by the proverbial balls. As well as getting closer to his ambition to annihilate the Hanseatic League and establish dutch merchants as the top dogs.

My man is nothing but efficient.

 

[Quinkana]

Let me just put it like this. The Valois-Burgundian House is gonna keep the majority of their holdings. As for Brittany, they are living on borrowed time in a sense.

That's quite nice. I'm supposing that both the Duchy and Palatinate of Burgundy's going to be French though?

Lorraine and Brabant have a shared vision right now and it's time to renew the alliance. And as for how long Brabant is gonna hold Burgundy, let me just say that Grand Duke Philip are gonna be long dead by then.

Unfortunately France was the biggest fish in the area, it does feel inevitable at times.

The Empire Strikes Back in 1530-35.

Imperial March intensifies

Love John William btw

 

[BlueFlowwer]

That's quite nice. I'm supposing that both the Duchy and Palatinate of Burgundy's going to be French though?

One can only slow the progress of time so much.

Unfortunately France was the biggest fish in the area, it does feel inevitable at times.

They are and while I have dealt them a bad hand within somewhat realistic circumstances here, nothing lasts forever.

Imperial March intensifies

Love John William btw

*plays Jaws theme*


All of this said, the Valois-Burgundian House are gonna last until 1813.

 

[Quinkana]

Frisia is the final expansion that Philip makes. The whole purpose of his eldest daughter Margaretha's marriage to the future Christian II was to make a alliance to retake Frisia in the end. Events in Cleves and the french invasion got in the way. Retaking Burgundy is the current priority now that Philip has France by the proverbial balls. As well as getting closer to his ambition to annihilate the Hanseatic League and establish dutch merchants as the top dogs.

My man is nothing but efficient.

Yeah that makes sense considering the goals of Brabant, and there's no way the Hanseatic League isn't getting more and more eroded by all the different actors wanting to take over the Baltic trade routes.

I do wonder how'll Frisia be split though, I don't see Christian II stretch much beyond Schleswig-Holstein while I can see Phillip attempting to take all of Free Frisia, and while connections between Denmark and England's great for Brabant considering their proximity to France I wonder when they'd recognise that they're the weaker power and be content with the lands they hold in Europe. I do hope they do take more of Germany ittl tho.

One can only slow the progress of time so much.

Yeah

Relatively good governance and the population sizes of the different actors make France quite hard to deal with for everyone else.

They are and while I have dealt them a bad hand within somewhat realistic circumstances here, nothing lasts forever.

unfortunately. I'll mourn brittany as they get subdued by France though, and I defo hope one cadet branch or two gets to establish themselves in Brabant or England and become a successful family.

*plays Jaws theme*

France being a shark is too good lmao

 

[BlueFlowwer]

Yeah that makes sense considering the goals of Brabant, and there's no way the Hanseatic League isn't getting more and more eroded by all the different actors wanting to take over the Baltic trade routes.

I do wonder how'll Frisia be split though, I don't see Christian II stretch much beyond Schleswig-Holstein while I can see Phillip attempting to take all of Free Frisia, and while connections between Denmark and England's great for Brabant considering their proximity to France I wonder when they'd recognise that they're the weaker power and be content with the lands they hold in Europe. I do hope they do take more of Germany ittl tho.

I think I kind of answered it here in a earlier chapter:

The marriage had been agreed upon in order to guard the duchy’s border to the north and to weaken the Hanseatic League. Philip also aimed to acquire the west and east Frisia as well as Groningen. Christian held North Frisia, so they had a mutual interest in dividing up the area in the future.

And technically Philip controls Utrecht as well kind of. And Cleves and Mark now.

Relatively good governance and the population sizes of the different actors make France quite hard to deal with for everyone else.

Its always the little things that will trip you up.

unfortunately. I'll mourn brittany as they get subdued by France though, and I defo hope one cadet branch or two gets to establish themselves in Brabant or England and become a successful family.

Well it won't go completely to hell until 1550ish for Brittany. But thanks for the idea about fleeing Bretons establishes themselves elsewhere. *goes of to plot shenanigans*

France being a shark is too good lmao

Lolol isn't it?

 

[Quinkana]

And technically Philip controls Utrecht as well kind of. And Cleves and Mark now.

Hmm that makes sense. I do hope Phillip does retain all of Frisia. I'm half asleep rn so thanks for reminding me tho.

Well it won't go completely to hell until 1550ish for Brittany. But thanks for the idea about fleeing Bretons establishes themselves elsewhere. *goes of to plot shenanigans*

Ahh nice! I'm defo interested in what you'll pull off considering what you did with Charles of Lorraine I wonder how he'll die.

I definitely hope we see Lorraine be part of the HRE and prevent France from taking more land

 

[BlueFlowwer]

Hmm that makes sense. I do hope Phillip does retain all of Frisia. I'm half asleep rn so thanks for reminding me tho.

I think he will leave the north for Christian.

Ahh nice! I'm defo interested in what you'll pull off considering what you did with Charles of Lorraine I wonder how he'll die.

I definitely hope we see Lorraine be part of the HRE and prevent France from taking more land

I have no idea of how Charles should die. And maybe Lorraine will survive for much longer? 🤔 But on the other hand some of their french domains might be gone before the century is over.


*Puts out bait for @Tsipouras1997 and @Janprimus to come look at the newest chapters.*

*outdoor selling voice*

Exiting developments in Brabants and France! Come and see the shiny new things happening! Discuss Flemish development with me!

 

[isabella]

Still the rulers of Brabant are male line descendants of Charles the Bold here and if the Valois and the Orléans (including the Angoulemes) go extinct like OTL…

 

[BlueFlowwer]

Still the rulers of Brabant are male line descendants of Charles the Bold here and if the Valois and the Orléans (including the Angoulemes) go extinct like OTL…

That they are indeed. So far the Valois dynasty is standing and I haven't begun to include the Angoulemes yet. But I think Louis of Orleans will make a appearance fairly soon.

 

[BlueFlowwer]

Would the english in this scenario be interested in a marital alliance with the Duchy of Savoy? I'm contemplating one.

 

[Dragonboy]

Would the english in this scenario be interested in a marital alliance with the Duchy of Savoy? I'm contemplating one.

Considering that the Duchess is our cupcake cath's beloved sister i can totally see her pushing for one.

 

[BlueFlowwer]

Considering that the Duchess is our cupcake cath's beloved sister i can totally see her pushing for one.

True that. But would England have anything to gain with Savoy?

 

[Dragonboy]

True that. But would England have anything to gain with Savoy?

One more ally to keep france down.

 

[BlueFlowwer]

One more ally to keep france down.

Its also a very small duchy rather far away. And it's on the other side of France.

 

[isabella]

Its also a very small duchy rather far away. And it's on the other side of France.

It is still a sovereign Duchy meaning who its heir could get a younger daughter (or the elder if she has problem to be matched as other worthier candidates in the right age range for her are missing) or a Savoy princess could be a decent match for a younger son, if needed for sealing an alliance

 

[BlueFlowwer]

It is still a sovereign Duchy meaning who its heir could get a younger daughter (or the elder if she has problem to be matched as other worthier candidates in the right age range for her are missing) or a Savoy princess could be a decent match for a younger son, if needed for sealing an alliance

And the House of Savoy is a very old one to boot. I think it can work.

 

[Dragonboy]

And the House of Savoy is a very old one to boot. I think it can work.

That's the spirit girl!

 

[BlueFlowwer]

So now that we are soon gonna cross the door into the second decade of 1500 and since Charles VIII has died in the most disastrous way ever for France since Louis XI perished in Tunisia, I figure you I'm gonna turn my gimlet eye to the Italian realms. Without the man (the myth, the bonking of head dying dude legend) who started the whole ass mess with invading Naples in the first place, what are the possible developments for Italy?

-The Medici family is gonna stay in power in Florence and maybe recover from Lorenzo the Magnificents death.

-What happens to the Papacy? What happens after Borgia kicks the bucket and does he died in the same way? What happens to Ceasare here, because his wife is married to Infante Ferdinand? And is Julius II the Warrior Pope butterflied?
I want my fighting pope with balls big enough to carry the roof of the sixtine chapel goddammit.

-What of Milan? What could happen?

-What of Naples? Can I do something there without it being asb? (is that the right term?)

-Without the Italian Wars, can I see Leonardo da Vinci ending up in Spain somehow? I just thought that would be hilarious somehow.

*lighting up beacon of minas thirrith for help*

 

[Dragonboy]

With Naples i hope we can see it's branch of the trastamara family securing the realm (with the support from the main spanish branch)

And totally agree that da Vinci ends up in Juan and Fernando's courts.