The Grand Duchy of the West - A Valois-Burgundian TL
- Thread starter BlueFlowwer
- Start date
Imagine Spain and Russia arguing over who's the real Rome.
Spain actually taking over Italy and ruling it well would be really cool.
Something I've been pondering in this TL.
Since I had Charles of Guelders renounce his titles and inheritance and take holy vows in this TL, would Philip of Burgundy be Duke of Guelders in his own right or jure uxoris as Philippa of Guelders would be the rightful sovereign over the Guelders lands? Otl Arnold and Adolf of Guelders sold the right to succession to Charles for 300,000 florins. It doesn't really matter much right now as I opted for Philippa to wed Philip for this reason, but I'm wondering if she's the legal duchess or if its more of a Elizabeth of York situation where the marriage is to solidify Philip's claim. I think it's the latter.
What do everybody think? I'm just being contemplative.
Since I had Charles of Guelders renounce his titles and inheritance and take holy vows in this TL, would Philip of Burgundy be Duke of Guelders in his own right or jure uxoris as Philippa of Guelders would be the rightful sovereign over the Guelders lands? Otl Arnold and Adolf of Guelders sold the right to succession to Charles for 300,000 florins. It doesn't really matter much right now as I opted for Philippa to wed Philip for this reason, but I'm wondering if she's the legal duchess or if its more of a Elizabeth of York situation where the marriage is to solidify Philip's claim. I think it's the latter.
What do everybody think? I'm just being contemplative.
I also think it's an Elizabeth of York situation - I have quite a bit of similar situations in my own TLs at the moment.
I think so as well. While Philippa might not be the reigning duchess in her own right, she has a very strong claim that could be used for other explorative persons. Like a Cleves person. Dang it, I should have written a chapter in where Philippa became the object of other suitors and someone tried to claim Guelders by marrying her at swordpoint. Crap. On the other hands she was safely esconed in the Burgundian court.
Well, there is always the Yorkists TL I have if it comes to that. Mayhaps I'll have a son of Charles the Bold invading Guelders and marrying her a la Anne of Brittany after slaying her brother in combat. Like this pairing, but make it awful instead.
... I just said that the match would be awful, why are you cheering
Not everything is sunshine and roses unless it's my self-indulgent TL 😏
Lmao. Okay, I will give you that credit.
I think I will bring up Philippa's Egmont relatives in chapter 34-5 when the Frisia question comes up. Like "here is a chapter of background tensions and possible drama that I realised I didnt think of before, but let's go with this now instead."
Chapter 30 - France and Spain from 1507 to 1508
Chapter 30 – France and Spain from 1507 to 1508
The failed invasion of Brabant had turned out to be the worst disaster for France since Agincourt. The death of King Charles VIII had been a calamity in itself, but Charles IX being taken prisoner at the scene of battle was a even worse stroke of misfortune. The invasion of Burgundy and Nevers and the english taking Boulogne had caused complete chaos to unfold and different fractions to form in the country. An increased number of people blamed the late king and his councillors for their arrogant invasion and said that divine retribution had struck France. Their increased anger found a spokesperson in the Duke of Orléans who called for the court to purge the “wicked councillors and treasonous snakes infesting the court that drew frightful peril over France”.
Louis of Orléans found three allies that shared his viewpoint; Alain I of Albret, Charles, Count of Angouleme and the young Charles III, Duke of Bourbon. Together these men joined forces against the monarchy, right now scrambling for protection. Queen Dowager Isabelle of Burgundy had suffered a severe shock at the news of her husband, brother and son’s fate, leaving her incapacitated for over a week. Queen Isabella of Portugal had been pregnant with her third child at the time and had gone into premature labour, ending up with a stillborn boy amidst a bloody and long delivery. Her other two children, six-year-old Charlotte and the two-year-old Louis, now the dauphin had been residing in Blois. Isabella ordered extra guards on the nursery, especially the toddling heir. She also sent a panicked message to Anne de Beaujue, the sister of Charles VIII. Albret had a personal cause against the royal family as his eldest son and heir, Jean had been taken captive by Philip. His wife, Isabeau of Brittany was fretting anxiously over him in court, as she was Première dame d'honneur to Queen Isabella. Anne acted quickly and summoned the Estates Generals to Paris. She also appointed Pierre Terrail, seigneur de Bayard as the new Marshal of France. The choice of Pierre had been a very wise one, as he had a solid reputation for being “the knight without fear and beyond reproach” and a respected and feared commander. Pierre went to work straight away, making a speech to the estates of the importance of defending France against foreign invaders and that they had thrown the English out thanks to the maid of Orléans.
Pierre Terrail, Marshal of France
But the estates were deeply divided about the issue of Burgundy and Nevers. Legally, Burgundy belonged to Grand Duke Philip who had sent an emissary to the court in Paris where his declaration of claiming “my late lord father’s inheritance unlawfully seized by the King of France under the brutal acts of needless aggression towards us”. Nevers was also a point of contention, as Engelbrecht had died without heirs. The rightful heir was Marie d’Albret, Countess of Rethel, married to Jean of Brabant. But as she only had one daughter so far in the marriage and Charles had forced Engelbrecht to swear in front of a papal legate, her hands were bound.
The quartet of Orléans, Albret, Angouleme and Bourbon had after a few months gained more ground in France, as Charles IX were still held prisoner. In late summer they had all called on their forces and together now occupied over a quarter of France in total, holding a ducal wall from Saintes to Moulins as well as other allies in Brittany and Lorraine.
France in 1508, the red parts are the lords in opposition of the king.
In order to avoid a civil war like the one back in 1488, Isabelle and Isabella decided to host a peace treaty in Chartres, hosted by the Prince-Bishop, Érard de la Marck and invited the dukes. The questions were primarily about ransoming the king, the regency until Charles were back on the throne and how to settle the question of Burgundy and Nevers. The end result would be the following:
-A shared regency with Orléans and Queen Isabella until the king came back. Bourbon, Angouleme and Albret would be councillors of state.
-France would renounce all claim to Burgundy as it legally belonged to Philip.
-All parties would raise part of the ransom to free the king and his companions.
Both Orléans, Bourbon and Angouleme were satisfied with those terms, but Albret was not. He wanted a bigger part of the regency and became jealous of Orléans. The lack of concern he had felt the others displayed for his heir also made him angry. Shortly after the peace treaty was signed, Albret returned to his lands, ostensible to raise men to take back Picardy, but in reality, to plan for his own schemes. He desperately wanted Jean back and thus he reached out to his two most important allies, Jean VI of Brittany and Ferdinand, Duke of Cádiz, the husband of his eldest daughter Charlotte, who also was the brother of Juan III of Castile and Navarre.
Shield of Alain d’Albret
He also knew that with the Duke of Cádiz came the support of the House of Foix. The marriage of Catherine of Navarre to then Prince Juan had caused the whole family to throw their allegiance to the Trastamaras of Spain and since Catherine had become the ruler of not only Navarre, but even duchess of Gandia, Montblanc, Penafiel and countess of Foix, Bigorre and Ribagorza and Viscountess of Béarn to boot. That meant that the queen consort of Castile also bore the titles of a French countess in her own right and the prince of Asturias and Viana would become a peer of France. The marriage between Charlotte and Ferdinand had been deliberately planned to counteract any attempts on Catherine’s French holdings, as the Albrets held large lands nearby and to serve as the first defence along the Pyrenees against French aggression. The house of Foix had found a place in court of Juan and Catherine, as her uncles governed Navarre in her absence and several members had taken positions as chancellors and courtiers. Louis de Beaumont, 2nd Count de Lerín, and Pedro de Navarra became very important to them and Catherine’s Foix cousins also threw in their lot with her. The two children of John of Foix, the younger brother of Gaston, the Prince of Viana, who had been Catherine’s late father, had become a regularly fixture at court and Gaston, his only son had been the closest of companions with Juan, Prince of Viana since infancy. His sister Germaine had become one of Princess Yolande’s main ladies in waiting since the birth of Infanta Isabel in 1503. The Foix’s being governed by Spain had created a tension with France and the only thing keeping things from escalating had been the loss in the mad war for the monarchy. Now Alain d’Albret called on the alliance with Castile in order to strengthen his hand in negotiations. Charlotte also pleaded her brother’s cause in court, and Ferdinand supported military intervention against France. King Ferdinand also spoke firmly in favour of it, noticing another chance to strengthen their hold over the Catalan counties. In the end, Juan dispatched the Duke of Cádiz across the border with a smaller army of 3,500 men to ensure the protection of the Foix lands and the Albret alliance as it was justified. Juan himself went to Roussillon with his father to claim the county as theirs once and for all. The regency of Castile was left with Queen Catherine who stayed in Burgos. The Prince of Viana and Gaston, Viscount of Narbonne also travelled with them. Princess Yolande had badly wanted to travel with her husband, but as she was expecting her second child, her mother-in law forbade her from going. So far, the marriage between them had yielded Infanta Isabel and a miscarriage in 1506, so Catherine made sure that the Princess and her child was not in any danger. Since both her husband and son was headed into what almost certainly would become a battlefield, Catherine protected her unborn grandchild if the worst would come to pass.
The impending Spanish forces in crossing into the south of France caused shockwaves that broke the fragile peace between the regency and the dukes. Both Orléans, Bourbon and Angouleme turned against Albret, accusing him of treason towards his own kingdom. Albret fired back that in the eyes of many, what they were doing were treason in itself and that if he was a traitor to strengthen his house and get his son back safely, then so where they. Orléans had been married to Joan of Valois, the sister of Charles VIII since 1473. Joan had been born sickly and deformed and Louis XI had intended to extinguish the Orléans branch of the Valois with the marriage. No children had been borne out of the marriage and now Orléans had reached the age of forty-five. One of his main goals with the regency had been to petition the pope to annul his marriage and to marry to another woman who could give him an heir to Orléans. The Albret-Trastamara-Foix alliance now meant that Juan applied pressure to the pope against him. Worse, Angouleme began to reconsider the strength of his alliance with the others and considered deflecting to the king’s side. The young duke of Bourbon remained on Orléans side however. The Estates generals, seeing the chaotic hell being unleashed began to pressure them to relent and to ransom the king from Brabant as the situation in France escalated even worse. Both the House of Lorraine, the Grand Duchy of Brabant and England tore counties and duchies away from France in the meanwhile. Nevers had been lost to the Scourge of France. Philip reestablished the Valois-Burgundian duchy in Burgundy and Boulogne fell under the York’s hands. To add insult to injury the Duchy of Savoy made their own scheme now that they had a golden opportunity.
The mighty kingdom of France who had shaken of the Plantagenet’s claim to their realms now say themselves beset upon multiple actors and for the first time since the madness of King Charles VI, the House of Valois saw the possibility of their doom looming over their crowned heads.
Author's Note: Its always wonderful when someone brings me a challenge like this:
The failed invasion of Brabant had turned out to be the worst disaster for France since Agincourt. The death of King Charles VIII had been a calamity in itself, but Charles IX being taken prisoner at the scene of battle was a even worse stroke of misfortune. The invasion of Burgundy and Nevers and the english taking Boulogne had caused complete chaos to unfold and different fractions to form in the country. An increased number of people blamed the late king and his councillors for their arrogant invasion and said that divine retribution had struck France. Their increased anger found a spokesperson in the Duke of Orléans who called for the court to purge the “wicked councillors and treasonous snakes infesting the court that drew frightful peril over France”.
Louis of Orléans found three allies that shared his viewpoint; Alain I of Albret, Charles, Count of Angouleme and the young Charles III, Duke of Bourbon. Together these men joined forces against the monarchy, right now scrambling for protection. Queen Dowager Isabelle of Burgundy had suffered a severe shock at the news of her husband, brother and son’s fate, leaving her incapacitated for over a week. Queen Isabella of Portugal had been pregnant with her third child at the time and had gone into premature labour, ending up with a stillborn boy amidst a bloody and long delivery. Her other two children, six-year-old Charlotte and the two-year-old Louis, now the dauphin had been residing in Blois. Isabella ordered extra guards on the nursery, especially the toddling heir. She also sent a panicked message to Anne de Beaujue, the sister of Charles VIII. Albret had a personal cause against the royal family as his eldest son and heir, Jean had been taken captive by Philip. His wife, Isabeau of Brittany was fretting anxiously over him in court, as she was Première dame d'honneur to Queen Isabella. Anne acted quickly and summoned the Estates Generals to Paris. She also appointed Pierre Terrail, seigneur de Bayard as the new Marshal of France. The choice of Pierre had been a very wise one, as he had a solid reputation for being “the knight without fear and beyond reproach” and a respected and feared commander. Pierre went to work straight away, making a speech to the estates of the importance of defending France against foreign invaders and that they had thrown the English out thanks to the maid of Orléans.
Pierre Terrail, Marshal of France
But the estates were deeply divided about the issue of Burgundy and Nevers. Legally, Burgundy belonged to Grand Duke Philip who had sent an emissary to the court in Paris where his declaration of claiming “my late lord father’s inheritance unlawfully seized by the King of France under the brutal acts of needless aggression towards us”. Nevers was also a point of contention, as Engelbrecht had died without heirs. The rightful heir was Marie d’Albret, Countess of Rethel, married to Jean of Brabant. But as she only had one daughter so far in the marriage and Charles had forced Engelbrecht to swear in front of a papal legate, her hands were bound.
The quartet of Orléans, Albret, Angouleme and Bourbon had after a few months gained more ground in France, as Charles IX were still held prisoner. In late summer they had all called on their forces and together now occupied over a quarter of France in total, holding a ducal wall from Saintes to Moulins as well as other allies in Brittany and Lorraine.
France in 1508, the red parts are the lords in opposition of the king.
In order to avoid a civil war like the one back in 1488, Isabelle and Isabella decided to host a peace treaty in Chartres, hosted by the Prince-Bishop, Érard de la Marck and invited the dukes. The questions were primarily about ransoming the king, the regency until Charles were back on the throne and how to settle the question of Burgundy and Nevers. The end result would be the following:
-A shared regency with Orléans and Queen Isabella until the king came back. Bourbon, Angouleme and Albret would be councillors of state.
-France would renounce all claim to Burgundy as it legally belonged to Philip.
-All parties would raise part of the ransom to free the king and his companions.
Both Orléans, Bourbon and Angouleme were satisfied with those terms, but Albret was not. He wanted a bigger part of the regency and became jealous of Orléans. The lack of concern he had felt the others displayed for his heir also made him angry. Shortly after the peace treaty was signed, Albret returned to his lands, ostensible to raise men to take back Picardy, but in reality, to plan for his own schemes. He desperately wanted Jean back and thus he reached out to his two most important allies, Jean VI of Brittany and Ferdinand, Duke of Cádiz, the husband of his eldest daughter Charlotte, who also was the brother of Juan III of Castile and Navarre.
Shield of Alain d’Albret
He also knew that with the Duke of Cádiz came the support of the House of Foix. The marriage of Catherine of Navarre to then Prince Juan had caused the whole family to throw their allegiance to the Trastamaras of Spain and since Catherine had become the ruler of not only Navarre, but even duchess of Gandia, Montblanc, Penafiel and countess of Foix, Bigorre and Ribagorza and Viscountess of Béarn to boot. That meant that the queen consort of Castile also bore the titles of a French countess in her own right and the prince of Asturias and Viana would become a peer of France. The marriage between Charlotte and Ferdinand had been deliberately planned to counteract any attempts on Catherine’s French holdings, as the Albrets held large lands nearby and to serve as the first defence along the Pyrenees against French aggression. The house of Foix had found a place in court of Juan and Catherine, as her uncles governed Navarre in her absence and several members had taken positions as chancellors and courtiers. Louis de Beaumont, 2nd Count de Lerín, and Pedro de Navarra became very important to them and Catherine’s Foix cousins also threw in their lot with her. The two children of John of Foix, the younger brother of Gaston, the Prince of Viana, who had been Catherine’s late father, had become a regularly fixture at court and Gaston, his only son had been the closest of companions with Juan, Prince of Viana since infancy. His sister Germaine had become one of Princess Yolande’s main ladies in waiting since the birth of Infanta Isabel in 1503. The Foix’s being governed by Spain had created a tension with France and the only thing keeping things from escalating had been the loss in the mad war for the monarchy. Now Alain d’Albret called on the alliance with Castile in order to strengthen his hand in negotiations. Charlotte also pleaded her brother’s cause in court, and Ferdinand supported military intervention against France. King Ferdinand also spoke firmly in favour of it, noticing another chance to strengthen their hold over the Catalan counties. In the end, Juan dispatched the Duke of Cádiz across the border with a smaller army of 3,500 men to ensure the protection of the Foix lands and the Albret alliance as it was justified. Juan himself went to Roussillon with his father to claim the county as theirs once and for all. The regency of Castile was left with Queen Catherine who stayed in Burgos. The Prince of Viana and Gaston, Viscount of Narbonne also travelled with them. Princess Yolande had badly wanted to travel with her husband, but as she was expecting her second child, her mother-in law forbade her from going. So far, the marriage between them had yielded Infanta Isabel and a miscarriage in 1506, so Catherine made sure that the Princess and her child was not in any danger. Since both her husband and son was headed into what almost certainly would become a battlefield, Catherine protected her unborn grandchild if the worst would come to pass.
The impending Spanish forces in crossing into the south of France caused shockwaves that broke the fragile peace between the regency and the dukes. Both Orléans, Bourbon and Angouleme turned against Albret, accusing him of treason towards his own kingdom. Albret fired back that in the eyes of many, what they were doing were treason in itself and that if he was a traitor to strengthen his house and get his son back safely, then so where they. Orléans had been married to Joan of Valois, the sister of Charles VIII since 1473. Joan had been born sickly and deformed and Louis XI had intended to extinguish the Orléans branch of the Valois with the marriage. No children had been borne out of the marriage and now Orléans had reached the age of forty-five. One of his main goals with the regency had been to petition the pope to annul his marriage and to marry to another woman who could give him an heir to Orléans. The Albret-Trastamara-Foix alliance now meant that Juan applied pressure to the pope against him. Worse, Angouleme began to reconsider the strength of his alliance with the others and considered deflecting to the king’s side. The young duke of Bourbon remained on Orléans side however. The Estates generals, seeing the chaotic hell being unleashed began to pressure them to relent and to ransom the king from Brabant as the situation in France escalated even worse. Both the House of Lorraine, the Grand Duchy of Brabant and England tore counties and duchies away from France in the meanwhile. Nevers had been lost to the Scourge of France. Philip reestablished the Valois-Burgundian duchy in Burgundy and Boulogne fell under the York’s hands. To add insult to injury the Duchy of Savoy made their own scheme now that they had a golden opportunity.
The mighty kingdom of France who had shaken of the Plantagenet’s claim to their realms now say themselves beset upon multiple actors and for the first time since the madness of King Charles VI, the House of Valois saw the possibility of their doom looming over their crowned heads.
Author's Note: Its always wonderful when someone brings me a challenge like this:
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hmm... so its more having Spain being much more stronger than otl and that they have more connections to Rome?
Tbf with France being more decentralised and the fact that Southern France is destroyed I'd think the main difference for France is that they're much weaker than otl.
I'd think centralisation for France would be much harder than otl too considering that the noble houses are a lot bigger.
Well, since Juan is gonna have three kingdoms, the indies and one quarter of Italy for himself, I figured that Portugal can get something as well. And while I don't yet know exactly how it will pan out yet (writing by the seat of my trousers sometimes) I figured that Isabella's children are gonna have some interesting lives and loves.
That is exactly what I was going for right now. But what will be the endgame of these nobles revolts remains to be seen. And how they will react if the tide turns against them?
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Ah I see, that'll be interesting indeed. Just imagine one of the cadet branches being able to claim to be king of Greece in the future though...
I'd still think it'd push the centralisation of France further into the future which can only be good for the other nations around France itself...
Portuguese claimants of Greece sounds interesting....
That depend on how whether or not things will get worse for France after this
@BlueFlowwer ! Always happy to See France suffer! And great that Juan, his father and brother are taking their turn to kick them too! Can't wait to See what savoy Will do!