Within the realm of realism (no ASB, no absurd wanking), what is the most Napoleon could hope to achieve within his lifetime? Could he have honestly defeated Britain, or could he only force them into a ceasefire or stalemate of some kind?
What is the best-case scenario for Napoleon Bonaparte?
- Thread starter treefreak32
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Dominion of Europe, a collection of Pro-French satellite states and entering into an accepted balance of power with Russia and the UK. I doubt Napoleon can ever really be comfortable with the last one, but it could happen.
Goes to Constantinople, converts to Islam, helps kill the Janissaries and later becomes one of the Ottoman Empire's most celebrated Grand Viziers, serving until his death.
A couple of pods to talk about:
- The Danes bring out their heavy ships instead of hiding them and utterly wreck Nelson and the British at the first Battle of Copenhagen, thus weakening the British navy and avoiding the defeat at Trafalgar.
- No defeat at Trafalgar keeps Spain happy and they continue to be a good ally instead of a questionable one, and puts more effort into the Invasion of Portugal. Napoleon decides to leave Spain alone in 1808, and even provides them assistance in taking Gibraltar. British navy is forced to stay on the defensive due to the French-Spanish fleet in being.
- Don't allow Bernadotte to take the Swedish throne. Sweden stays pro-French and neutral and allows France's ally Denmark to keep Norway.
- Invasion of Russia is most likely unavoidable. However, with the Danes officially at war with the British and the British with a limited fleet (especially with the War of 1812 happening), a Blockade of Petrograd by the Danish Fleet and a pro-French Swedish Invasion of Finland (which threatens Petrograd), the Year has nowhere to run and is forced to sign for peace when Napoleon takes Moscow.
- This leaves Great Britain. They'd sue for peace but I don't think Napoleon would accept it.
Due to the logistical impracticalities of a Sea Invasion, Napoleon decides to build the world's biggest causeway across the English Channel with construction being protected by their fleet. The causeway is completed in 2 years and in 1815 Napoleon marches on London, and divides Great Britain up into Ireland, Scotland, Wales, and England.
- The Danes bring out their heavy ships instead of hiding them and utterly wreck Nelson and the British at the first Battle of Copenhagen, thus weakening the British navy and avoiding the defeat at Trafalgar.
- No defeat at Trafalgar keeps Spain happy and they continue to be a good ally instead of a questionable one, and puts more effort into the Invasion of Portugal. Napoleon decides to leave Spain alone in 1808, and even provides them assistance in taking Gibraltar. British navy is forced to stay on the defensive due to the French-Spanish fleet in being.
- Don't allow Bernadotte to take the Swedish throne. Sweden stays pro-French and neutral and allows France's ally Denmark to keep Norway.
- Invasion of Russia is most likely unavoidable. However, with the Danes officially at war with the British and the British with a limited fleet (especially with the War of 1812 happening), a Blockade of Petrograd by the Danish Fleet and a pro-French Swedish Invasion of Finland (which threatens Petrograd), the Year has nowhere to run and is forced to sign for peace when Napoleon takes Moscow.
- This leaves Great Britain. They'd sue for peace but I don't think Napoleon would accept it.
Due to the logistical impracticalities of a Sea Invasion, Napoleon decides to build the world's biggest causeway across the English Channel with construction being protected by their fleet. The causeway is completed in 2 years and in 1815 Napoleon marches on London, and divides Great Britain up into Ireland, Scotland, Wales, and England.
I could've sworn the OP said "no ASB"
Not that you would necessarily NEED alien assistance in the successful completion of the causeway project, but it would certainly help...
I could've sworn the OP said "no ASB"
Not that you would necessarily NEED alien assistance in the successful completion of the causeway project, but it would certainly help...
I remember doing the math for it a while ago for how much dirt/stone you need and manpower as well. Its theoretically possible to build a causeway across the channel, though definitely not practical, but this is Napoleon were talking about. Its more practical than WW2 River barges...
Dammit now you've got me thinking of ways to make this thing work and frankly it's hurting my head a little bit
I'll go with @The Tai-Pan above.... as every good (and not flat-ass broke) gambler understands, quit while you're ahead... sometime between 1809 and 1812, hang up the marshal's baton, donate the crown for permanent viewing at the Museum of Accomplishments of Napoleon the Great, and seize someone's castle with a nice view... at least one better than the rather dreary view from Longwood.
The later Napoleon's basic problem was that the Young Napoleon made being a brilliant general look super cool. Every other soldier in Europe wanted to be the one who beat Napoleon, and they were proud to settle for just giving him a hard fight that used up his resources, and they kept coming. To avoid this, the Young Napoleon would have to make being a brilliant general look dorky, so people would be embarrassed to fight him and maybe herp derp lose to a loser. The expert soldier and brilliant liar who made people think hard street fighting in Paris against courageous experts just took 'a whiff of grape' might have pulled this off.
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If he can restrain himself from invading Russia, it's totally plausible that Napoleon could have remained on the throne until his 1821 death from stomach cancer, at which point the Bonapartist regime would probably have collapsed due to the fact that the heir to the throne was only 10 years old. The major problem for Napoleon was that due to some combination of personality and domestic political pressures Napoleon just couldn't stop fighting, so he probably would have overextended himself eventually.
The challenge is in finding a POD that gets Napoleon to stop and consolidate. Perhaps the recent discussion of a war with Prussia instead of Russia is a way to get there?
I always wondered, would it have been possible for Napoleon to dismantle Austria, or at least strip away much more territory from them than IOTL, like he did with Prussia? OTL he was quite lenient with Austria, but pretty harsh with Prussia, despite the fact that the former was more powerful overall than the latter. With Austria dismantled or greatly weakened, it would be pretty hard to assemble a coalition powerful enough to defeat France, would it not?
Indeed I share that opinion as well, a divided Austria would not be able to provide armies to any coalitions. What POD would be needed for Napoleon to destroy Austria? They would need to piss him off a lot.
I think you've hit on something here... consolidation rather than conquest.
Thing is its less getting him to want to stop (he did want to invade russia and did as much as he could to avoid it) and more getting the last two European powers (russia and england) to except the new states quo which is very difficult sense they have both active reasons to not like the status quo and have various newly conquered people in which they can get help from.
Maybe if Wagram is a crushing French victory, similar to Austerlitz? Napoleon might use the opportunity to punish Austria, instead of marrying a Habsburg princess.
Marrying in to the Habsburgs makes that a bit more difficult.... after he married Marie Louise in 1810, dismembering any more of the Austrian Empire than he already had would've been a bit... impolitic... they were a key to his claim to legitimacy.
Technically, Napoleon would not invade Russia if Paul I is still the Tsar/Emperor of Russia, since Paul I had planned to reproach with the French in 1800s, but he was assassinated (with a covert British help). So figure out a way to butterfly the assassination of Paul I or make the assassination went unsuccessfully would help. OTOH, Aleksandr I proved to be too much of a chameleon to help the French anyways. Just my two cents.