WI: American Auto Wank?

Like I said before, its success was because of Volkswagen's management more than anything, and the Beetle lasted WAY past its use by date. Ford wouldn't have let that happen in all likelihood, which woulda meant the thing might have made it to 1960, but not much beyond that.

Hm, you might have a point there. I guess I had been assuming that Ford wouldn't micromanage VW too much, and let them respond to the needs of a European market, but I suppose it's also possible that they could do some real damage. Though it'd be a real pity if the Beetle got butterflied away :(

My father has an incredible story of his '63 Beetle he had when he lived in South Africa. He rolled it off a road one night near Johannesburg, and with the help of a local farmer, he flipped it back onto its wheels and drove away. Try THAT in a land yacht.

Nice :D

The Beetle came to life after the war because the British Occupation authorities needed cars for their Officers. If ford buys the Company before that happens, the Beetle never happens anyway.

What, were they too good to buy American (owned)? :mad:
 
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Yeah, no kidding.:D In addition to the examples you mentioned, there's also the glitch that there was a general contempt for foreign cars when Detroit was at the top (e.g. the "tin cans" remark).

And even then -- and I may well be mistaken about this -- there was something of a tendency to have an attitude, when releasing a new car, that said "The consumer will buy what we damn well tell them to", which was (in part) behind the disaster that was the Edsel. (Though like I said, I could be wrong.)

No, you have that entirely right. GM's management in the 1950s through the 1980s had a level of narrow outlook that had to be heard to be believed. In 1976, a poll of 5000 high-ranking GM employees found that less than 200 had ever worked for anyone else in their entire lives. That myopia contributed to damn near all of GM's problems. Truth be told, the first foreign cars into North America were either exotic road cars and racers, roadsters (the popularity of which GM tried to latch on to, that is what gave birth to the Corvette) and small cars, which proved to be problematic and in many cases, they DID have problems. The first Toyotas brought to North America were awful in that regard. The Edsel should have killed the idea that customer will buy what they tell them to, but some continued to have that idea for a long time.

Wow, I actually had not known that GM had done something similar 1925-31 to what I'm talking about Ford doing ITTL in the decade following WWII. :) I wonder if it's realistic for Chrysler to still go that route ITTL or if those efforts would more likely be butterflied away? Either way, it's more for plausibility, I suppose...

GM's international efforts were extensive, as were Ford's. Holden didn't come about until the 1950s, but the Holden FJ is in the same boat as the Beetle, Model T and Mini in Australia, a national icon. GM had divisions established in places like Turkey, Argentina, Brazil and South Africa shortly after WWII. GM Argentina was shut down in 1980 and GM South Africa temporarily closed in 1986, though GM got back into it with a vengeance in 1997, and GM is South Africa's second largest carmaker (Volkswagen is #1), and every H3 Hummer sold outside North America is made in Port Elizabeth. The Detroit automakers had major international presence around the world long before WWII - Ford started auto production in Australia in 1926, GM bought into Holden, Vauxhall and Opel between 1925 and 1931. Chrysler could go that route, but keep in mind that Chrysler only came to be in 1921 (and that in itself was because of a strategic error by Henry Ford), and was a much smaller company to the mammoth GM and Ford.

I threw out the idea before, but what if Ford pressures Congress to work to restrict Germany's (and maybe Japan's) ability to aid their auto industries as a form of "reparation", so as to protect their investments? I'd imagine if Michigan Senators like Vandenburg and Ferguson were pushed into this role, they might be able to pull it off, no?

That's pointless, if you ask me. The Japanese and Germans weren't ready to seriously fight for chunks of the US auto market until the early 1970s, and by that point any wishes to enforce reparations would be mooted by the desire to keep Japan and West Germany on the side of the United States in the Cold War.

Wait, wasn't Rover defunct in 1967? And Leyland in 1968? :confused: I'm sorry, but I just don't see British Autos posing any kind of threat.

No, Rover was part of Leyland Motor Corporation, which merged with British Motor Holdings to form British Leyland in 1968. the vast duplication and all of BL's other problems, as well as Britain's 1970s union militancy, caused the company to crash and crash hard, which is why it was nationalized in 1968. If you want to find an opportunity to really put Chrysler in the big leagues, I'd say them buying out BL in the early 1970s could really put a big chunk of your idea. British autos could be a threat by the time of the oil crisis, if they had been engineered or built by people who care. British cars of the 1970s are widely considered to be some of the biggest shitboxes EVER made, because of both a lack of any sort of serious engineering efforts and workers who honestly didn't give a damn.

On Alfa Romeo and Fiat: OK, I concede I may have understated them --although... they are in Italy. If Germany and Japan can be tamed on a WWII pretext... :rolleyes:

Italy was treated rather differently, and several of the modern amazing names in cars - Ferrari, Maserati and Lamborghini, for starters - started from guys who right after WWII started off turning military vehicles and their parts into civilian uses. Fiat was state-owned at the end of WWII as well, which would make nationalization there difficult.

Well, at any rate, there's still Peugeot and Renault. Real competition, yes, but still a lot less than OTL. And if Paris alone can really still bring them down, well... :mad:

Renault and Peugeot recovered fast from WWII, as did Citroen, which merged with Peugeot in 1976, and were the buyers of Chrysler's European operations in 1980. They tended to be innovators in terms of technology, as well. That can't bring them down, but if they can make better quality cars, they could make an impact. I drove a 1990 Peugeot 405 Mi16 (the last model sold by Peugeot in the US, from 1988-1991) when I lived in South Africa for six months in 1997, and I rather liked that car. Better built and with a better dealer network, that car coulda been a success, easily.

I'm not ruling either of these out necessarily, but I'd still like the PoD to be earlier -- during or just after WWII -- and for the immediate effects to be Ford taking on VW and Nissan-Toyota. If what you mentioned can be butterflied from there, that's all the better.:D

I'm not sure there would be much point, personally. Ford would focus on its own work, so if they buy the Volkswagen plant and designs, they'd probably end up buried for good, leaving the Wolfsburg plant to produce Ford Europe car. Ford would have a tough time buying any Japanese firm.
 
Hm, you might have a point there. I guess I had been assuming that Ford wouldn't micromanage VW too much, and let them respond to the needs of a European market, but I suppose it's also possible that they could do some real damage. Though it'd be a real pity if the Beetle got butterflied away :(

The Beetle only lasted as long as it did because of its simplicity and reliability, the same reason that the Citroen 2CV and the Austin Mini lasted as long as they did. Ford would almost certainly not allow the Beetle to stay as is for very long, because remember that the American auto executives thought everyone wanted land barges. Even European models sold by Detroit makers couldn't resist chrome, for example.


Yeah, my dad had stories you wouldn't believe. He was born in Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe) and left for South Africa after high school. Ten years there, he met my mom in Durban, and they married and moved on to Canada. I managed to take dad back to his old family home near Kwekwe, Zimbabwe, while I was living in Johannesburg in 1997-98, and I'd never seen my dad cry before then. I remember what Zimbabwe looked like in November 1997, which is part of the reason I hate Robert Mugabe so damned much - it wasn't rich, but it damned sure wasn't starving.

Anyways, he had two VW Beetles while in South Africa, a '63 and a '65. He moved on then to a Datsun 240Z, which he sold when he came to Canada. He's got pictures of all of them.
 
OK, a lot to get to, and most of it will probably have to wait for tomorrow. So:

First off: TheMann, you are... well, you're extraordinarily knowledgeable about this subject.:D Far more so than I, and I have deeply enjoyed your feedback so far. Which made me appreciate your last post, on your dad, all the more; it certainly sounds like he would have some awesome stories, as you say. And this...

Anyways, he had two VW Beetles while in South Africa, a '63 and a '65. He moved on then to a Datsun 240Z, which he sold when he came to Canada. He's got pictures of all of them.

... is something I now, officially, have got to see.:p

Second:

Renault and Peugeot recovered fast from WWII, as did Citroen, which merged with Peugeot in 1976, and were the buyers of Chrysler's European operations in 1980. They tended to be innovators in terms of technology, as well. That can't bring them down, but if they can make better quality cars, they could make an impact.

That's perfectly consistent with what I'm trying to do; makes it somewhat better, actually. :)

Third, I concede this point about my "reparations"-protectionist scheme:

That's pointless, if you ask me. The Japanese and Germans weren't ready to seriously fight for chunks of the US auto market until the early 1970s, and by that point any wishes to enforce reparations would be mooted by the desire to keep Japan and West Germany on the side of the United States in the Cold War.

Fourth:

Ford would have a tough time buying any Japanese firm.

I'm going on the assumption that Ford takes Nissan and Toyota up on the offer of a partnership, that they take the upper hand on. Does this seem implausible? If so, where would you see such an arrangement heading (say the deal's made 1950)?

And (for the night) last:

GM's management in the 1950s through the 1980s had a level of narrow outlook that had to be heard to be believed. In 1976, a poll of 5000 high-ranking GM employees found that less than 200 had ever worked for anyone else in their entire lives. That myopia contributed to damn near all of GM's problems... The Edsel should have killed the idea that customer will buy what they tell them to, but some continued to have that idea for a long time.

I'm thinking -- let's broaden the challenge. What PoD, during or right after WWII, gives us a Detroit where GM and/or Ford does not think like this during this period?
 
I do work in the industry, I am working for Nissan North America right now. :) That does help. Being a car nut in a family full of them also helps.

As far as the Chrysler-PSA or Chrysler-BL dealings, those would both face nationalistic issues (particularly with the French), but its possible. The biggest thing which hurts Detroit's international efforts is not finances - they've never had that problem - but ideas. That's part of the reason I always use the Corvair as a POD. If its a roaring success, Detroit would perhaps take more chances and use better technologies and better design for their cars around the world, as well as in the US.

As far as an arrangement between Ford and Nissan or Toyota - which is not impossible, but not real plausible. Toyota did just about go under in 1950, but one should remember that the company at that time was still controlled by the Toyoda family. Selling out to Ford in that case would not happen, especially as there was other parts of the company that weren't going broke. Nissan is more likely to work with Ford, owing to the fact that its founder, Yoshisuke Aikawa, had been heavily influenced by a visit to the United States in 1909, and as he got Nissan off the ground after WWII, he had a number of Americans as part of the staff.

If that deal is made, Nissan would probably through the 1950s assembled Ford cars in Japan, but they would use what they learned there as a base to build off of to make their own cars and designs, starting in the late 1950s and early 1960s. Ford might object to this, but I doubt it. As Nissan's efforts to enter the US market get serious, Ford would probably help them do it, complete with Ford-Nissan dealers in some cases, though this would probably split up on an organized basis by the early 1970s. Assuming they see that they need to make good small cars to run in that market, Nissan and Ford might hammer out a deal to develop better small cars for Ford, which means the Pinto (if its still called that, it might not) would be a much better car. Nissan would never allow itself to sell a car with the exploding fuel tank problem because of cultural concerns - the Japanese have a deep dread of fire - so that problem never comes out.

For your last point, the best way to do that is to have somebody come in who is an engineering guru who wants to keep using technology to make better cars. Having Ed Cole rise to be GM's President would probably do it - Cole was a major backer of the Corvair. Have that car be successful, and build it without the swing-axle rear suspension (a stupid idea all around IMO) but with the independent rear suspension of the 1965-on models, and you'd have unquestionably the best small car in the world at the time - Corvairs, aside from the stupid rear suspension design, were good cars. The car is a major success, Nader doesn't focus on it with his book, and the 1965 model is a similar success. By this point, GM is finding out that fitting many of the Corvair's suspension innovations makes for better cars all around, and disc brakes, which could be easily introduced with the 1963 Corvette, prove to be easier to produce and more effective, thus making them almost universal across the range by 1970. Finding that GM's cars are better than theirs, Ford, Chrysler and AMC undergo a crash course to keep up. This makes for the ultimate musclecars of 1968-1971 also having much better roadholding and ride, and better brakes.

This attention to technology allows for all four American manufacturers to make considerably better smaller cars. The excellent design of the Corvair and its following rivals nips much of the import manufacturer efforts in the bud. They get a foothold after the oil crisis, but Detroit answers the oil crisis with much better cars than in OTL, thus allowing them to minimize the damage done. Over the 1970s, Detroit looks into why people buy imports and discovers the pricing strategy and build quality differences, and applies that idea across their range.
 
This man could have helped Detroit a lot.

W. Edwards Deming

Learning from this man would put Detroit years ahead or at the very least enable American automakers to match foreign competition move for move.
 
This man could have helped Detroit a lot.

W. Edwards Deming

Learning from this man would put Detroit years ahead or at the very least enable American automakers to match foreign competition move for move.

Yes, Detroit would have been wise to have Deming on their payroll, but even if they had, the idea of continuous improvement never really caught on with Detroit until the Japanese started kicking their asses in the 1980s, and the very acrimonious relationship between the UAW and the automakers makes trying to have such systems set up in the US additionally difficult.
 
If that deal is made, Nissan would probably through the 1950s assembled Ford cars in Japan, but they would use what they learned there as a base to build off of to make their own cars and designs, starting in the late 1950s and early 1960s. Ford might object to this, but I doubt it. As Nissan's efforts to enter the US market get serious, Ford would probably help them do it, complete with Ford-Nissan dealers in some cases, though this would probably split up on an organized basis by the early 1970s. Assuming they see that they need to make good small cars to run in that market, Nissan and Ford might hammer out a deal to develop better small cars for Ford, which means the Pinto (if its still called that, it might not) would be a much better car. Nissan would never allow itself to sell a car with the exploding fuel tank problem because of cultural concerns - the Japanese have a deep dread of fire - so that problem never comes out.

No Pinto? Nice:D Also, if I understand this correctly, Ford would be getting at least a significant share of Nissan's profits and efforts, meaning, in effect, they'd have their foot in Japan's door, essentially side stepping the nation's protectionist policies.

For your last point, the best way to do that is to have somebody come in who is an engineering guru who wants to keep using technology to make better cars. Having Ed Cole rise to be GM's President would probably do it - Cole was a major backer of the Corvair.

I like the idea of promoting an engineering guru early, but as to Ed Cole -- well maybe, but for my purposes it could be tricky; I'm looking for a first PoD roughly 1942-50, and Ed Cole first rose to prominence in 1949, when the team he co-headed released the Cadillac V8, then became head of engineering in 1952.

W Edwards Deming, for the purposes of an earlier PoD, may work better, though it's still a little tricky -- he started work in Japan's reconstruction 1947, became MacArthur's assistant 1950, and gave the speech for which he became famous later that year.

Even so, there's a lot of great stuff to work with here.
 
No Pinto? Nice:D Also, if I understand this correctly, Ford would be getting at least a significant share of Nissan's profits and efforts, meaning, in effect, they'd have their foot in Japan's door, essentially side stepping the nation's protectionist policies.

They would get payment for helping them out and royalties for any Ford parts/platforms/engines/et cetera used, yes. And yes, Ford would be able to have its cars made by Nissan and sold in Japan, thus sidestepping the country's protectionism. But as GM found out when they tried just that in 1996-2000 - Google "Toyota Cavalier" - selling cars designed for America in Japan is a difficult task, just as European models don't always sell well in North America.

I like the idea of promoting an engineering guru early, but as to Ed Cole -- well maybe, but for my purposes it could be tricky; I'm looking for a first PoD roughly 1942-50, and Ed Cole first rose to prominence in 1949, when the team he co-headed released the Cadillac V8, then became head of engineering in 1952.

One other possibility might be the designers of military weapons. Perhaps the guys who developed many WWII weapons decide to not rest on the laurels GM had set up, and keep on going with technological developments.

Even so, there's a lot of great stuff to work with here.

Indeed. If you are looking to make Detroit as dominant as possible, you'll need to raise the idea of constant improvement and leadership, and have them make the best cars possible instead of working over what they already have.
 
One other possibility might be the designers of military weapons. Perhaps the guys who developed many WWII weapons decide to not rest on the laurels GM had set up, and keep on going with technological developments.

Now we're talking!:D Got any suggestions, people places to look?

If you are looking to make Detroit as dominant as possible, you'll need to raise the idea of constant improvement and leadership, and have them make the best cars possible instead of working over what they already have.

Indeed. I'm leaning more toward finding a way to change both GM and Ford in the decade following WWII, by having one change butterfly into the other; then, the corporate culture will just be such that other companies, like Chrystler, will fall into better habits seamlessly.

Also, might as well ask again -- from what you've heard of Clay Ford, does he sound someone who would have done things differently from his brother, Henry (II)?
 
Again, if you have concentrated all of the world's engineers in Detroit, you'll invariably have some talent which goes elsewhere. In addition to that, it would simply change better engineering or build quality in many cases to keep Peugeot, British Leyland, Fiat and Renault in the North American market. Remember that Peugeot didn't pull out of the US until 1991, Alfa Romeo in 1994 and Rover in 1996. Now, the Japanese aren't perfect - Daihatsu had an awful few years between 1988 and their 1993 departure - but they have too much influence and strength.

Memories! My eccentric father loved old European clunkers. My first car was an ancient Jaguar that would stall out as soon as one raindrop hit the windshield.:rolleyes: The car also ate steering bushings. The car had the handling of an Atari arcade game.

I beg to differ that many of the European manufacturers left North America because of shoddy engineering. 70's British Leyland products were utter trash, granted. Old Peugeots were tough as nails mechanically, however, even if rusty. Ditto Renaults -- my grandmother's R9 went along quite well even after the body resembled Emmenthaler. My father drove an Alfa 164 and thoroughly enjoyed it -- the handling and shifting were superlative even though the ergonomics were disasterous. He should have bought the Alfa or a Peugeot and thrown caution to the wind -- instead Mom got a dumpy slow Volvo. :( It's a blessing that he didn't buy the Citroen XM that he thought was really nifty. :eek: All cars up until the mid 80's rusted badly, and the Pugs, Renaults, and Alfas cringed at the winter salt-slush. I'm convinced that Americans disdained most European makes simply because of their ergonomic quirks and styling. Also, many Americans don't know how to drive standard and don't care to learn. Up until relatively recently, many European cars were not available in automatic or had extremely weak automatic drivetrains. Many European makes didn't care to design cars to American needs, and had to leave as a result.

Enough of that. I'm convinced that the Big Three would have been crushed from their own inertia by the 1980's. Product demand would have eventually ended tariffs and other protections akin to the removal of foreign car tariffs in 1970's Britain. 70's American cars weren't much better than their European competitors of the time and certainly less mechanically reliable than the Japanese. American cars were hobbled by bad engineering -- the Chevy Vega would blow their aluminium engines at 50k miles. Sure, race cars use aluminium engines, but they're also replaced after each race! Ditto GM's ill-fated conversion of the small-block gas V8 to diesel. The gasoline head couldn't handle diesel compression and broke down. The Pinto was a rolling BBQ because Ford bean counters thought it cheaper to pay out lawsuits than put in a few dollars' worth of modifications to the fuel tank.

Like BL, the Big Three was churning out vehicles to make a quick profit without any care for durability or safety. Japanese cars were cheaper but better built. It's no wonder that Detroit's influenced waned from the 70s on as the Japanese beat them at value for money.
 
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I feel I should confess -- I among said demographic :eek:

I didn't have a choice. It was either learn or not drive.

I'm quite biased against automatic transmission, so perhaps I shouldn't comment. Still, get a manual transmission beater as your next car (or find someone with a beater) and practice far away from rush hour. Have someone with you who can take over if you freak out on some huge hill.
 
Memories! My eccentric father loved old European clunkers. My first car was an ancient Jaguar that would stall out as soon as one raindrop hit the windshield.:rolleyes: The car also ate steering bushings. The car had the handling of an Atari arcade game.

My first car was a 1985 Toyota MR2, red, manual transmission, quite rusty but plenty reliable. I drove that beast all the way from Toronto to Seattle when my family moved to the US. I know what you mean by memories, though that little MR2 handled beautifully.....

I beg to differ that many of the European manufacturers left North America because of shoddy engineering. 70's British Leyland products were utter trash, granted. Old Peugeots were tough as nails mechanically, however, even if rusty. Ditto Renaults -- my grandmother's R9 went along quite well even after the body resembled Emmenthaler. My father drove an Alfa 164 and thoroughly enjoyed it -- the handling and shifting were superlative even though the ergonomics were disasterous. He should have bought the Alfa or a Peugeot and thrown caution to the wind -- instead Mom got a dumpy slow Volvo. :( It's a blessing that he didn't buy the Citroen XM that he thought was really nifty. :eek: All cars up until the mid 80's rusted badly, and the Pugs, Renaults, and Alfas cringed at the winter salt-slush. I'm convinced that Americans disdained most European makes simply because of their ergonomic quirks and styling. Also, many Americans don't know how to drive standard and don't care to learn. Up until relatively recently, many European cars were not available in automatic or had extremely weak automatic drivetrains. Many European makes didn't care to design cars to American needs, and had to leave as a result.

That all is quite true, about the not designing cars to suit the environment. The Europeans were usually never all that good at doing that. And yes, many Americans never bother to learn how to drive a stick-shift. (Truthfully, I've only ever owned one automatic car, all of the others were manual transmissions. And that one auto is my current car, which I couldn't get with a manual.) The European cars of the 1970s in general had rust problems all over the place, to the point that they became unsafe to drive after a while. And the most hilarious part to me about my family is that while my dad was driving Volkswagens, Mom had a '69 Holden Monaro. Figure that one out. ;)

Enough of that. I'm convinced that the Big Three would have been crushed from their own inertia by the 1980's.

I agree, and have said as much. If you want Detroit to continue to be successful, they have to change to suit changes in the country and the world, and have them not be such a bureaucratic machine by the 70s.

American cars were hobbled by bad engineering -- the Chevy Vega would blow their aluminium engines at 50k miles. Sure, race cars use aluminium engines, but they're also replaced after each race! Ditto GM's ill-fated conversion of the small-block gas V8 to diesel. The gasoline head couldn't handle diesel compression and broke down. The Pinto was a rolling BBQ because Ford bean counters thought it cheaper to pay out lawsuits than put in a few dollars' worth of modifications to the fuel tank.

Like BL, the Big Three was churning out vehicles to make a quick profit without any care for durability or safety. Japanese cars were cheaper but better built. It's no wonder that Detroit's influenced waned from the 70s on as the Japanese beat them at value for money.

I agree with every word of that, and the Ford memo about paying the costs of lawsuits as being cheaper than reinforcing the fuel tanks on the cars should have had its writer sent to prison. (GM had that same problem, too.) What GM should have done with the Vega was added iron liners to the engine block, which they later did, right from the start. That woulda fixed the problem right there. As for the gas to diesel conversions, in addition to them being unreliable, they were also god-awful slow, and one must ask how you make an engine with 5.7 liters displacement make only 105 horsepower. (No, really. 105 horsepower from a 5.7-liter V8. :eek:)
 
My first car was a 1985 Toyota MR2, red, manual transmission, quite rusty but plenty reliable. I drove that beast all the way from Toronto to Seattle when my family moved to the US. I know what you mean by memories, though that little MR2 handled beautifully.....



That all is quite true, about the not designing cars to suit the environment. The Europeans were usually never all that good at doing that. And yes, many Americans never bother to learn how to drive a stick-shift. (Truthfully, I've only ever owned one automatic car, all of the others were manual transmissions. And that one auto is my current car, which I couldn't get with a manual.) The European cars of the 1970s in general had rust problems all over the place, to the point that they became unsafe to drive after a while. And the most hilarious part to me about my family is that while my dad was driving Volkswagens, Mom had a '69 Holden Monaro. Figure that one out. ;)



I agree, and have said as much. If you want Detroit to continue to be successful, they have to change to suit changes in the country and the world, and have them not be such a bureaucratic machine by the 70s.



I agree with every word of that, and the Ford memo about paying the costs of lawsuits as being cheaper than reinforcing the fuel tanks on the cars should have had its writer sent to prison. (GM had that same problem, too.) What GM should have done with the Vega was added iron liners to the engine block, which they later did, right from the start. That woulda fixed the problem right there. As for the gas to diesel conversions, in addition to them being unreliable, they were also god-awful slow, and one must ask how you make an engine with 5.7 liters displacement make only 105 horsepower. (No, really. 105 horsepower from a 5.7-liter V8. :eek:)

The real irony here, was that GM had a aluminium blocked V8 engine, in the form of the Buick 215 series V8...
Unfortunately for G.M, it initially had reliabiility problems, and the entire design, including rights & tooling was sold to Rover in the U.K...
Rover managed to sort the engine out, & reportedly G.M tried to get the licence to make the now "Rover" V8 in the U.S, which could produce some 350 BHP from its 3.5 litre capacity, when properly tuned, from Rover...
Rover refused, but offered to sell GM engines at cost price...
 
Since proxime and TheMann have already talked about their first cars, I should say something of mine: I spent most of my driving years using my parents Dodge Grand Caravan (I don't remember the year), and only earlier this year got the first car registered to my name, a slightly used 2007 Kia Spectra. I am fully aware that I am not the car expert on this thread.

Now, on the TL -- I'm having trouble coming up with a plausible person with a brilliant engineering background to take on leadership of GM or Ford by 1950, and am starting to think of fixing the difficulty with a Non-Existent Historic Actor (NEHA*). What do you think?

The Pinto was a rolling BBQ because Ford bean counters thought it cheaper to pay out lawsuits than put in a few dollars' worth of modifications to the fuel tank.

Wow -- just wow.

I agree with every word of that, and the Ford memo about paying the costs of lawsuits as being cheaper than reinforcing the fuel tanks on the cars should have had its writer sent to prison.

Agreed.

*I couldn't think if this site's community had an equivalent term -- if not, d you think this would stick?
 
The real irony here, was that GM had a aluminium blocked V8 engine, in the form of the Buick 215 series V8...
Unfortunately for G.M, it initially had reliabiility problems, and the entire design, including rights & tooling was sold to Rover in the U.K...
Rover managed to sort the engine out, & reportedly G.M tried to get the licence to make the now "Rover" V8 in the U.S, which could produce some 350 BHP from its 3.5 litre capacity, when properly tuned, from Rover...
Rover refused, but offered to sell GM engines at cost price...

Yeah, if I were writing a TL on GM having more engineering prowess, that design would not be sold to Rover, but rather would have powered several smaller and mid-size cars for the 1960s and beyond.
 
Just popping in to say I probably won't be doing this TL :( -- not to soon, anyway.

I am truly sorry -- but the problem is that I just don't feel confident enough talking about the mechanical details that would prove key. This was difficult for me because, even though I don't feel up to the task, I'd still love to see a timeline on this.

I would be very obliged if someone here did a TL where Detroit avoids the self-destructive corporate culture of 1950-80, and plays a dominant role in auto sales in the US, with a leading role across the world.

And if that someone is TheMann... :D:D:D
 
John, kick me over the pieces of it as you go along, and I'll help ya out with it. That help?

I thank you very much for such a generous offer; I'm tempted to reverse myself just so I can read your feedback. Nevertheless, there's still some issues:

(1) I'm still deciding which TL to make my first; the last post was to say I wasn't (likely) going to pick this one

(2) I still don't know where to begin -- I want the first PoD to be in the 1940's, but the closest this thread has come on that is the idea of having an engineering genius (still unnamed) take over Ford or GM, or running up is having W Edward Deming take charge of one, but even then getting him in the door prior to 1950 looks tricky

(3) My knowledge of cars, to be completely honest, is actually very little -- I've found myself struggling to keep up reading TheMann, Proxime, and others talk about the engineering blunders of GM and Ford

Again, thank you very much for your kind offer; but I'm afraid my decision is final (for the time being).
 
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