Honestly, I don't exactly know myself. The only example from OTL is Ecumenical Patriarch Meletius IV who was a Metropolitan Bishop in the Church of Greece before being elected Patriarch of Constantinople in 1921. After the Greek defeat in the Greco-Turkish War of 1919-1922 he was forced to resign and ever since the Patriarchate has been separated from the Church of Greece. I would assume that if Greece ever gets a hold of Constantinople for any period of time ITTL they would merge the Church of Greece with the Patriarchate, but I'm not completely sure.
Pride Goes Before a Fall: A Revolutionary Greece Timeline
- Thread starter Earl Marshal
- Start date
For some reason, I'm really intrigued by the idea of the Model Farm in this ATL. It reminds me quite a bit of the vision of the Land-Grant University program in the United States and, if successful, I wonder if it won't have some influence on those. Now, its super early and all, but I was wondering if the Greeks might benefit from a Farmer's Association or *Grange movement - namely social clubs where farmers would gather to learn about the newest advancements in farming, to socialize and - eventually - to lobby for agricultural issues. Since Greece's terrain is so isolating, I suspect any organization would be rather loose with each local chapter covering a small amount of territory. Still, it could help inspire an even stronger Greek identity (farmers in the north and south, for instance, would be able to communicate and realize they face similar issues and can support one another) and would probably form the basis of one of the eventual political parties to develop in the nation.
What's literacy like in Greece in the ATL? In OTL, such organizations relied heavily on the distribution of literature to help spread knowledge of the newest practices (as well as invited guest speakers and lecturers to help educate and entertain people) and so a lower literacy rate might hurt a hypothetical organization. But having a smaller country, once the infrastructure issues get sorted out, might make traveling lecturers a better option.
What's literacy like in Greece in the ATL? In OTL, such organizations relied heavily on the distribution of literature to help spread knowledge of the newest practices (as well as invited guest speakers and lecturers to help educate and entertain people) and so a lower literacy rate might hurt a hypothetical organization. But having a smaller country, once the infrastructure issues get sorted out, might make traveling lecturers a better option.
That was the idea behind the New Model Farm. It's based off of Kapodistrias' Agricultural Model Farm from OTL, which for all intents and purposes was a rudimentary Farmer's Association. It actually was a precursor to the modern Agricultural University of Athens. Unfortunately, Kapodistrias' death and the anarchy that followed killed any chance it may have had of benefiting Greek farmers and it was soon abandoned. Ultimately, something like this wouldn't take place again in Greece until 1871 with the agriculture reforms of Alexandros Koumoundouros.
I don't have an exact number regarding literacy rates in the 1830's, but its pretty low, I'd say no more than 15 to 20%. That number should rise relatively quickly given the fact that Kapodistrias is a big advocate of education and he would certainly work to improve the spread of schools and universities across Greece where he can. Kapodistrias' education reforms will also be more effective than Otto's heavy handed implementation of the Bavarian education system onto Greece without regard for the local or traditional interests.
A literate population can also be thought Ancient Greek/Katharevousa
Hopefully Katharevousa will focus on turning demotic into a universal Greek dialect and then quietly disappear instead of sticking around, becoming increasingly archaic and incomprehensible and adding yet another division to the population. There is absolutely no reason to revive a language that has been dead for centuries, and those who are interested can learn actual Ancient Greek.A literate population can also be thought Ancient Greek/Katharevousa
Sounds like Greece is looking in the right direction even if it doesn’t have the budget for it yet.
I bet that Athens-Piraeus line will be up and running in ten years or so and the rest will follow quickly enough. Having a rail network this early will have massive repurcussions financially and militarily—the future Balkan rebellions and wars will show the world the potential of rail.
On a random side note, I’m a bit of a coin collector—believe me when I say that those early Phoenix mintages will be quite valuable in a century or so
I bet that Athens-Piraeus line will be up and running in ten years or so and the rest will follow quickly enough. Having a rail network this early will have massive repurcussions financially and militarily—the future Balkan rebellions and wars will show the world the potential of rail.
On a random side note, I’m a bit of a coin collector—believe me when I say that those early Phoenix mintages will be quite valuable in a century or so
The OTL Athens to Piraeus line wasn't even brought up until 1835 and even then work only started on it in 1857 due to political and economic problems. Even after a contract was agreed to the rail line wasn't completed until 1869 due to a myriad of reasons with the most frequent being money and resources. While the Greeks will face some of these issues having a more stable government in control of the process should expedite this by several years at least.Sounds like Greece is looking in the right direction even if it doesn’t have the budget for it yet.
I bet that Athens-Piraeus line will be up and running in ten years or so and the rest will follow quickly enough. Having a rail network this early will have massive repurcussions financially and militarily—the future Balkan rebellions and wars will show the world the potential of rail.
On a random side note, I’m a bit of a coin collector—believe me when I say that those early Phoenix mintages will be quite valuable in a century or so
Oh I'm sure they will be quite the money maker.
I'm starting to love this TL even more as it gets more economically focused. The 19th and 20th centuries are times where a couple good land reforms, finance reforms, and state support for industry could honestly drastically change not only the geopolitical power of a country, but the demographic situation. We could see a Greek population of 10 million by 1910 OTL borders and far higher if they secure most of or all the Aegean/Rumelia. This, combined with a robust economy and resilient state, could make Greece the regional power in the Eastern Mediterranean/Balkans. Consider there were almost 100,000 Greeks just in Constantinople at the time of Greek independence and getting up to around 350,000 in the early 20th century. There's more Greeks in the Ottoman Empire at this time than in Greece! And with a more expansive definition of Greek, an earlier demographic transition, and territorial gains we could see twice as many Greeks IITL than OTL, or even more!
It's too late to make Greece a great power without some severe wanking(like incorporating the Bulgarians into the Greek state somehow.) But not too late to make it a middle power that can stand on its own.
It's too late to make Greece a great power without some severe wanking(like incorporating the Bulgarians into the Greek state somehow.) But not too late to make it a middle power that can stand on its own.
I didn't understand exactly what you meant with the representation of the people in Legislative and regional bodies.... how wide is the franchise? Are the members of the house of representatives elected by direct popular vote, or under an indirect system, elected by the members of the Councils of the Nomoi (similar to Austrian Imperial Diet prior to the introduction of direct suffrage) ?. Are these councils the strongholds of regional notables, who rule "their" dominions in a cacique style? Have the Nomoi only executive powers or can they pass their own legislation too?
IMHO, the second option, indirect suffrage is the most realistic system for an European realm in the 1830s.... considering that brings a middle way between despotism and more progressive proposals (unfeasible for OTL & TTL Greece)
Last edited:
Members of the House are elected directly by the people of their County. The Nomoi Advisory Councils are essentially provincial legislatures similar to what the United States has for its states and for all intents and purposes they are controlled by the notables of the Nomos just as you said. The Nomos can make their own rules and legislation so long as it doesn't conflict with anything the National Government has done legislation wise.
Greece was pretty liberal in regards to suffrage and representation, they actually had a provision in the 1832 Constitution calling for universal suffrage for all men above 25 and a they wanted a popularly elected legislature so I don't think this is as much of an issue as it may appear. That said, I will probably go back and adjust it so it doesn't scare away the conservative crowned heads of Europe.
And do you really think that such degree of regional autonomy is the best choice for a newborn (and small in terms of territory) country somehow prone to anarchy?. Devolved legislative initiative looks like the shortest road to regional uprisings. I thought you were talking about something akin to french decentralization (only executive autonomy to enforce nacional legislation) instead of the German/Spanish model....
Fair enough, I'll change it so the Nomoi have less autonomy and no legislative power.
OTL war-torn Greece "tolerated" more than 10 years of absolutist (and incompetent) Bavarokratia.... and the 1843 Revolution had more to do with the thirst for political power the Greek war veterans experienced than anything else..... in fact it was a military coup fervorously supported by the people,
I wonder if better governanza, with earlier results in the daily life of the common people, would enable the establishment to reform itself in an orderly fashion and at a less spasmodic manner
I wonder if better governanza, with earlier results in the daily life of the common people, would enable the establishment to reform itself in an orderly fashion and at a less spasmodic manner
Perhaps instead of a major Revolution in 1843 there is a minor set of reforms that broadens the powers of the common man through increased suffrage ITTL.
The Greeks will tolerate a stronger government, and even accept it, for longer so long as economic prosperity reaches a large majority of people. Why rebel when you are well fed and getting richer?
but should the delicate balance of investment and debt management collapse civil strife is sure to follow.
Depending on your definition of tolerated. I don't have my copy of Kokkinos handy but I'M Otto faced between 2 or 3 dozen revolts bordering from the minor to the Maniots smashing up a German army of a couple thousand that thought it could teach the locals manners. And of course they should count themselves extremely lucky Kolokotronis was willing to go quietly when imprisoned on spurious charges.
Universal suffrage should stay I think. On the other hand the nomoi would be purely administrative divisions with no autonomy. It's no accident that nomarches became an electable office only in the late 1990s.
God just the not having to deal with the rebellions under Otto will make the financial situation of Greece so much better